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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:40 am 
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andyr1963 wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote:
Indefensible really. Boris also on very thin ice.

in some ways this has parallels to the Major years and remember that he was PM longer than Cameron, so I can see TM going on for a good while yet. Two things could arise: 1. no-one else from the Tory ranks would want the job right now, and 2. the public actually start to turn in her favour - either seeing stoicism or through pity.


I reckon no one wants to be the PM who actually took Britain out of the EU. To actually go down in the history books as the British leader who led the country to obscurity. :greensmile:


I don't know Andy, it is after all a guaranteed place in the history books, I reckon that whatever follows, there would be quite a few that would find that appealing.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:42 am 
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t._green wrote:
andyr1963 wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote:
Indefensible really. Boris also on very thin ice.

in some ways this has parallels to the Major years and remember that he was PM longer than Cameron, so I can see TM going on for a good while yet. Two things could arise: 1. no-one else from the Tory ranks would want the job right now, and 2. the public actually start to turn in her favour - either seeing stoicism or through pity.


I reckon no one wants to be the PM who actually took Britain out of the EU. To actually go down in the history books as the British leader who led the country to obscurity. :greensmile:


I don't know Andy, it is after all a guaranteed place in the history books, I reckon that whatever follows, there would be quite a few that would find that appealing.

But surely Cameron has that nailed on him forever? Whoever the poor sod is who happens to be stood at the helm when HMS UK actually crashes into the iceberg will just be a tricky quiz question in decades to come. But it was Cameron who planned the whole ill-fated voyage in the first place. Cameron who set the route and fixed the steering wheel then jumped ship when he realised WTF he’d done.

(Actually it was another Cameron who directed a movie about something similar in 1997. Spooky eh?)


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Spooky indeed.

I 'm not sure about that Ave it, History tends to forget the planners and organisers in favour of the action heroes, when you think about the discovery of America you don't immediately think of Ferdinand and Isabella, rather Columbus. I suspect it's Cameron who's destined for a footnote in History simply because all the politics eventually gets distilled into bite sized facts or even forgotten. I suppose it all depends on whether 50 years from now Brexit (how I hate the term) is seen as an unmitigated disaster for the UK economy or a masterstroke of tactical brilliance. Sadly, none of us know the answer to that one, though we all have our own thoughts on the matter. One thing that's certain is we are going to need leaders of far more ability and competence than we can currently boast, and that really is a worry.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:52 am 
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Its funny how the chickens are slowly coming home to roost, and some of the leading Brexit politicans, Priti & Boris, with their 'bull in a china shop' approach to running the country are proving how they just don't really think it all through.

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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:44 am 

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Quinny wrote:
TM should be looking to replace Priti Patel with the best person for the job: how that person voted in the referendum should be irrelevent. It top of the tick-list keeping the Leave element in the party happy then she's an even weaker PM than I thought.


Reading back, I thought this was interesting Quinny - the concept of 'best person' can mean a lot of things but the inference I take from your words is the most capable.

You've centred on Brexit not dictating choice, but in these times of positive bias on candidate shortlists and nominal expectations of representation in Cabinet or on company Boards, can we always expect to have the 'best person'?

I should point out that I'm very supportive of improved diversity, and that Penny Mordaunt may indeed turn out to be the 'best person' regardless of Brexit or gender - I'm talking more in the round.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:48 am 
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Indeed, Frank, I meant the most capable. As it is, Penny was the idel candidate for that post because she had done it in some manner in the past, as well as being pro Leave (being on the back-benches helped too, so no major reshuffle was needed). However, I would be disappointed if she was selected over a better candidate because of her Brexit cedentials: that's a clear sign of someone putting party above that of the good of the country.

FWIW I am not a fan of positive discrimination. Yes we know that sex discrimination and misogyny is still rife in many areas of life and it may take decades until all women are treated equally to men. But that doesn't make it right that someone should be selected because she is a woman when a better person was overlooked because he was a man.

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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm 

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On that we're agreed I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:22 am 

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It's interesting to note that polls are still indicating a lead of around 3 points for Labour - consistent since July. I know that many will see the polls as discredited but trends are very important (assuming methodologies don't change) and the trend here is no change.

This despite Fallon resigning, Johnson's gaffes and Patel (the latest was taken during the Patel scandal rather than after). A Government in at least partial crisis with division and discord everywhere you look, but the polls aren't moving.

Anthony Wells on UK Polling Report theorises that most of the general public just don't pay attention to Westminster news. He also speculates about voting for Labour under Corbyn as the alternative.

Personally, I still don't think this country will award a majority to a far left Labour leadership. Now if a moderate like Burnham or Umunna were leader now, I think the polls would look very different indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:46 am 
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I wonder what proportion a Monty Brewster style “none of the above”would capture?

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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Frank_Butcher wrote:
It's interesting to note that polls are still indicating a lead of around 3 points for Labour - consistent since July. I know that many will see the polls as discredited but trends are very important (assuming methodologies don't change) and the trend here is no change.

This despite Fallon resigning, Johnson's gaffes and Patel (the latest was taken during the Patel scandal rather than after). A Government in at least partial crisis with division and discord everywhere you look, but the polls aren't moving.

Anthony Wells on UK Polling Report theorises that most of the general public just don't pay attention to Westminster news. He also speculates about voting for Labour under Corbyn as the alternative.

Personally, I still don't think this country will award a majority to a far left Labour leadership. Now if a moderate like Burnham or Umunna were leader now, I think the polls would look very different indeed.


Certainly these are interesting times.

I must admit that for the first time in a long while i voted labour at the last election, though if a general election were held next month I would no longer do so. The reason is at the last election you had one party with all the ideas and another party afraid of meeting the people. The refusal to debate on TV by Theresa May was imho a disaster for the Tories and showed them arrogant and out of touch. I had doubts about her before hand, and this refusal confirmed that she was far from strong and stable—rather weak, indecisive and fearful of the electorate— something many the country, I imagine suspected at the time.

This only served to throw into sharp relief Corbin's ease with the ordinary man and woman in the street, and he relished the challenge, in fact the longer it went on the more like a Prime Minister he looked—compared to Mrs May, he seemed to grow in stature throughout, drawing huge crowds wherever he went. Sure there was the pacifist issues with Trident, his meetings with Hamas and Hezbollah etc, and I was prepared to overlook these as he was speaking up for Joe Average and had ideas on redressing of the balance of wealth. It was an inclusive message and I signed up for it, A new hope for Britain, where the poorest, the disenfranchised were going to be cared for rather than be ignored.

Now, for me, a few months on, and everything has changed. More recent meetings with those same terrorist groups whilst declining an invitation by Israel on it's recent anniversary (I'm a big supporter of Israel's right to exist) has led me to understand UK foreign policy would be far less even handed under a Left wing Labour Government. In fact, a British government would most likely actively support terrorist groups within both Israel and The Lebanon

To be fair, it's not just that, I think 6 months on the momentum has dissipated anyway. It's as much to do with reduced TV air time as anything else. Maybe, if May resigned and there were another election soon (something I can't see happening) Mr Corbin could give it another go, but time is against him. Many of us were prepared to give him a chance last time around because he was new, fresh and above all seemed to care. Now some of us have finally come to a conclusion about him and are less likely to make the same choice again.

It might be argued he appeals more to the young and idealistic rather than world weary old blokes like me, so maybe I've got this all wrong anyway. I would certainly consider voting for a Labour alternative if it were more mainstream and united. So it's not the Labour party as such, or it's general policies I now object to, it's more Jeremy Corbin's personal judgement on world matters that I no longer trust. This is a shame because I normally admire people of integrity and conviction, and I wish more of our politicians had such qualities, it's just that it's perfectly possible to have them and still be fundamentally wrong. Imho, of course


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:05 am 

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:30 am
Location: Tauranga NZ
Whilst many of the points raised above are valid, they are failing to identify the primary problem with British Politics, which is the fundamental relationship between the four entities of the British Isles: namely Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. Over the last half a century the world has changed with empires lost, technology and social media just a few. People now want closer contact with their governments and this is leading to a drive for splitting off into individual states, i.e. Scotland, Barcelona and Ukraine.
Therefore the discussion should be about how to resolve the tensions between central London government and the devolved institutions currently being installed. The other issues to be addressed if the British Iles is to be effectively governed are 1 an English Parlement and 2 an unified Irish Parlement.
Perhaps these issues are to difficult to resolve by polititions with their own agenders, if so we are in for a torrid ride over the coming years, as the changing aspirations of the people will only increase for less central government.
Can a federal system work, with the central government in London bein responsible for currency, defence, foriegn affairs and interface infastruture and everything else assigned to the devolved national governments.
Cant be any worse.

CJH

PS Go back in History and you will see that all four nations are a mixture of the same Pre History anf Post Roman tribes, so we are the same nearly.


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 Post subject: Re: Major problems with British politics 2017- ???? Discuss.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:10 am 
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Interesting post you talk about nationalism being the cause of problems within the four countries and also point out Ukraine and Barcelona yet you argued for the remain side on brexit. Surely then you must think it's just time before the EU breaks up like all dynasties before it


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