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England Manager at Euro 2012

jerryatricjanner

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I agree largely with Greensam's earlier post and his later one that we are in the second group of 8 teams. I agree with the first 7 countries he name as stronger than us but Portugal and Uruguay I would say are no better. The worry now I think for a new manager is that our so called "golden age" of players has ended. Beckham, Terry, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Lampard etc. are either gone or in decline and we have a lot of decidedly below top 16 players as Greensam calls them before coming to the promising youngsters who could be our future. The half dozen "golden age" players are now 30 plus and the future prospects like Walker, Richards, Jones, Smalling, Cleverly, Welbeck, Sturridge, Wilshere, Oxlade/Chamberlain etc. etc. are nowhere near their peaks yet and there is no guarantee they will fulfill their respective potentials. The age range 23 to 29 when players should really be around their prime we seem very average indeed by top international standards,. Who among G Johnson, Cahill, Lescott, Milner, Barry, Lennon, Downing, Walcott, Bent, Defoe, Crouch,A Johnson etc. would be in or near the first teams of those top nations or even in their squads in many cases? In this age group I would say Hart and Rooney would be the only two and Hart is not the finished article yet. It was interesting watching the game today to see a 37 year old Scholes still showing Gerrard how to keep possession of the ball which is crucial at the highest level. Maybe I overlook his other qualities but it has always been a bugbear of mine how cheaply Gerrard gives the ball away at international level with too many speculative forward passes.
 
Feb 21, 2008
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jerryatricjanner":3uxryud3 said:
I agree largely with Greensam's earlier post and his later one that we are in the second group of 8 teams. I agree with the first 7 countries he name as stronger than us but Portugal and Uruguay I would say are no better. The worry now I think for a new manager is that our so called "golden age" of players has ended. Beckham, Terry, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Cole, Lampard etc. are either gone or in decline and we have a lot of decidedly below top 16 players as Greensam calls them before coming to the promising youngsters who could be our future. The half dozen "golden age" players are now 30 plus and the future prospects like Walker, Richards, Jones, Smalling, Cleverly, Welbeck, Sturridge, Wilshere, Oxlade/Chamberlain etc. etc. are nowhere near their peaks yet and there is no guarantee they will fulfill their respective potentials. The age range 23 to 29 when players should really be around their prime we seem very average indeed by top international standards,. Who among G Johnson, Cahill, Lescott, Milner, Barry, Lennon, Downing, Walcott, Bent, Defoe, Crouch,A Johnson etc. would be in or near the first teams of those top nations or even in their squads in many cases? In this age group I would say Hart and Rooney would be the only two and Hart is not the finished article yet. It was interesting watching the game today to see a 37 year old Scholes still showing Gerrard how to keep possession of the ball which is crucial at the highest level. Maybe I overlook his other qualities but it has always been a bugbear of mine how cheaply Gerrard gives the ball away at international level with too many speculative forward passes.
I think that's a good post, and I doubt that even Hart would get into most of the "top" teams.

Maybe Ashley Cole might get into a few scraping the barrell.
 

jerryatricjanner

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Yes, that was why I said Hart was not yet the finished article. At present I don't think he can be classed in the elite keeper category but one day he might. Cole would get in most top teams, certainly their squads as would Rooney. After those three I am struggling. Sam how many from Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Pique, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Alonso, Da Silva, Villa etc would make the England team?
 
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jerryatricjanner":137gsc6c said:
Yes, that was why I said Hart was not yet the finished article. At present I don't think he can be classed in the elite keeper category but one day he might. Cole would get in most top teams, certainly their squads as would Rooney. After those three I am struggling. Sam how many from Casillas, Puyol, Ramos, Pique, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Alonso, Da Silva, Villa etc would make the England team?
Hmmm.

I think I'd say yes to all of them. Assuming by Da Silva you mean David Silva from Man City?

I think the only England player who would get into Spain's team is Rooney alongside Villa- Torres is well past it.
 

jerryatricjanner

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David Silva yes. I agree, Rooney the only one, Cole possibly. I didn't even include Fabregas either, scary really.
 
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bathpilgrim

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Jones the Green":nhh77cfx said:
bathpilgrim":nhh77cfx said:
Neilio":nhh77cfx said:
bathpilgrim":nhh77cfx said:
Sven to come back and rescue us. He is England's best manager ever (statistically), he is out of work, he has an up-to-date knowledge of English football and we know he would do it.

In what way statistically?

I think you'll find the best England manager (statistically) has just left, and old Sven finds himself down in fifth......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16941457

OK fair enough, but I'd like to go with.....

Win % + loss % + progress in major tournaments = the best manager ever on paper.

Ha ha! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You should know, Neilio. that by "statistics", bathpilgrim always means the carefully selected figures that support his statements, and not any others!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hello Jones The Green ! Didn't think it would take long for someone with your voiyeuristic obssession with the England football team to get involved in this debate. Let me assure you that your opinions are as welcome as Alan Green, Alan Hansen and Alex Ferguson - that is to say NOT AT ALL.

I bet you feel like a tramp with his nose pressed up against the glass of an expensive restaurant when you see us all on here debating whether we should go for Mourinho or Wenger or Hiddink or Redknapp ? Isn't there some sort of chat room where you can debate whether Wales will get Mickey Thomas or Dean Saunders as Manager for the tough match in the summer agaist the Faroe Islands.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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bathpilgrim

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Peter Ryan":2muwcdre said:
Fair point Bath Pilgrim (a few posts back) - he WAS a winner, the 2010 campaign was so awful though - you have to admit!?

Yes, difficult to deny that we didn't play to our potential, though there is a school of thought that says we did get further than Italy and France, as far as Portugal, and only game short of Argentina and Brazil so maybe not a complete disaster. A disaster was what we had in 2008 the last time the press demanded a knee-jerk English manager.

We will never know now, but I think that Capello would accept that he did make mistakes in 2010 but (and this is my point really) I beleive that he has the intellect to make changes for a different outcome. It's a boring example, but look at Sir Alex Fergusons first few seasons in charge on Man U, there was a learning curve but he was bright enough to learn how to do it right. I think that someone with Capello's nouse would have got there.
 
bathpilgrim":i3m7cw14 said:
Jones the Green":i3m7cw14 said:
bathpilgrim":i3m7cw14 said:
Neilio":i3m7cw14 said:
bathpilgrim":i3m7cw14 said:
Sven to come back and rescue us. He is England's best manager ever (statistically), he is out of work, he has an up-to-date knowledge of English football and we know he would do it.

In what way statistically?

I think you'll find the best England manager (statistically) has just left, and old Sven finds himself down in fifth......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16941457

OK fair enough, but I'd like to go with.....

Win % + loss % + progress in major tournaments = the best manager ever on paper.

Ha ha! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You should know, Neilio. that by "statistics", bathpilgrim always means the carefully selected figures that support his statements, and not any others!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hello Jones The Green ! Didn't think it would take long for someone with your voiyeuristic obssession with the England football team to get involved in this debate. Let me assure you that your opinions are as welcome as Alan Green, Alan Hansen and Alex Ferguson - that is to say NOT AT ALL.

And greetings to you, bathpilgrim! :wave:

I of course totally understand why the opinions of Alan Hansen and Alex Ferguson are unwelcome to someone like you. After all, as a player and a Manager respectively, they have achieved overwhelming success in the game and therefore as pundits know what they are talking about. Clearly unwelcome and threatening to those that don't! :lol:

"Voiyeuristic obssession" with the England team, eh? We'll be charitable and make no comment on your spelling ( :doh: :lol: ) and make it clear once again that my primary fascination is not with the team but a certain element of their support.

Most England fans are great, and I have no problem with the England team doing well for their sakes. But a section of the English support, the "Ingurlund numpties", are just hilarious. Jingoistic and prejudiced beyond belief, they ignore all evidence to the contrary and continue to insist that the England team are one of the strongest contenders at tournaments. The Red-top tabloid readers, those who think the very fact that THEY ARE ENGLAND should be enough to paralyse "Johnny Foreigner"! :doh:

The sort of people, in fact, who carefully select highly dodgy statistics to attempt to "prove" England are the fifth best team in the world!!! :facepalm:

Why shouldn't anyone have an interest in observing such people? They're truly hilarious.

What is currently interesting me, very much, is just what excuses such people will come up with, when England have their highly probable usual tournament disaster this summer?

Perhaps it will be "the team was disrupted by the Manager change." Or the old favourites, "the players were tired after a long hard season (other countries apparently don't have Leagues in which their players play all season :roll: ) or "we are unlucky/robbed/cheated."

What is actually needed, for the sake of English football, is an appreciation by everyone that the game is badly organised and run from top to bottom, that players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced, and that fundamental change is essential.

The "ingurlund mentality", bathpilgrim, does not help one iota towards making such change. It just gets those responsible off the hook. :sad:
 
May 3, 2007
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bathpilgrim":3kadz1bv said:
I think that someone with Capello's nouse would have got there.

Maybe his nous might have turned out OK but his lack of commitment was abysmal. I do think he manufactured his own departure.

He'll turn up at a plumb job in Italy very soon.
 
B

bathpilgrim

Guest
Jones the Green":38kmumwk said:
bathpilgrim":38kmumwk said:
Jones the Green":38kmumwk said:
bathpilgrim":38kmumwk said:
Neilio":38kmumwk said:
bathpilgrim":38kmumwk said:
Sven to come back and rescue us. He is England's best manager ever (statistically), he is out of work, he has an up-to-date knowledge of English football and we know he would do it.

In what way statistically?

I think you'll find the best England manager (statistically) has just left, and old Sven finds himself down in fifth......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16941457

OK fair enough, but I'd like to go with.....

Win % + loss % + progress in major tournaments = the best manager ever on paper.

Ha ha! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You should know, Neilio. that by "statistics", bathpilgrim always means the carefully selected figures that support his statements, and not any others!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hello Jones The Green ! Didn't think it would take long for someone with your voiyeuristic obssession with the England football team to get involved in this debate. Let me assure you that your opinions are as welcome as Alan Green, Alan Hansen and Alex Ferguson - that is to say NOT AT ALL.

And greetings to you, bathpilgrim! :wave:

I of course totally understand why the opinions of Alan Hansen and Alex Ferguson are unwelcome to someone like you. After all, as a player and a Manager respectively, they have achieved overwhelming success in the game and therefore as pundits know what they are talking about. Clearly unwelcome and threatening to those that don't! :lol:

"Voiyeuristic obssession" with the England team, eh? We'll be charitable and make no comment on your spelling ( :doh: :lol: ) and make it clear once again that my primary fascination is not with the team but a certain element of their support.

Most England fans are great, and I have no problem with the England team doing well for their sakes. But a section of the English support, the "Ingurlund numpties", are just hilarious. Jingoistic and prejudiced beyond belief, they ignore all evidence to the contrary and continue to insist that the England team are one of the strongest contenders at tournaments. The Red-top tabloid readers, those who think the very fact that THEY ARE ENGLAND should be enough to paralyse "Johnny Foreigner"! :doh:

The sort of people, in fact, who carefully select highly dodgy statistics to attempt to "prove" England are the fifth best team in the world!!! :facepalm:

Why shouldn't anyone have an interest in observing such people? They're truly hilarious.

What is currently interesting me, very much, is just what excuses such people will come up with, when England have their highly probable usual tournament disaster this summer?

Perhaps it will be "the team was disrupted by the Manager change." Or the old favourites, "the players were tired after a long hard season (other countries apparently don't have Leagues in which their players play all season :roll: ) or "we are unlucky/robbed/cheated."

What is actually needed, for the sake of English football, is an appreciation by everyone that the game is badly organised and run from top to bottom, that players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced, and that fundamental change is essential.

The "ingurlund mentality", bathpilgrim, does not help one iota towards making such change. It just gets those responsible off the hook. :sad:


Let me just re-iterate some facts for you....

1. Alex Ferguson, Alan Hansen and Alan Green have an anti-English agenda. Ferguson because he doesn't want his players to play Intrernational Football; Green + Hansen because they are in the media and English promotion followed by English failure means good business for them.
2. Reading this thread shows me that most English fans are very reallistic and self-effacing about England's chances, in fact pessimistic. Absolutely nowhere is there anything that could be described as jingoistic or prejudiced against other nations.
3. By the sort of people "who carefully select highly dodgy statistics to attempt to prove England are the fifth best team in the world" presumably you mean FIFA + pretty well every bookmaker in the world + all their millions of customers who make the market. So it's just me, football's governing body, all the results + millions of punters in the world. That is some conspiracy theory.
4. It is widely accepted by most people in football that The English Premier League is the hardest in the world hence the lethargic appearance of many players at the end of its season - how prominent were messrs Tevez, Santa Cruz, Torres, Evra etc in South Africa ?
5. Great point about "players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced" - well apart, from Joe Hart, Andy Carroll, Jack Wilshere, Adam Johnson, Phil Jones, Jordan Henderson, Kyle Walker, Micah Richard, Theo Walcott, Danny welbeck, Chris Smalling, Tom Cleverly, Jack Rodwell, Daniel Sturridge, Alex Oxlaide-Chaimberlain, Ross Barclay, Connor Wickham.......most of whom are keeping senior professionals from other international teams on the bench every saturday, and all of whom are under 25 and likely to be around the International scene for the next 5 - 15 years. Yes, the outlook looks very bleak for us poor old England fans :crazy:

I'm sorry that England are a world footballing force, I know it hurts you, but we have a real chance in the summer. If I would you I would sit back, swallow your pride, get behind England (where you live after all) and enjoy some decent football
 
Feb 21, 2008
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Bathpilgrim, if we were so good, why have we only made one World Cup Semi, and one Euro Semi on home soil in the past 46 years?

That ain't the form of a top 5 team is it?
 
Nov 8, 2010
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1
GreenSam":2zaxw4wg said:
Bathpilgrim, if we were so good, why have we only made one World Cup Semi, and one Euro Semi on home soil in the past 46 years?

That ain't the form of a top 5 team is it?

You're right, it isn't top 5, but it ain't far off.

Going off the last four World Cups, we have 2 second rounds and 2 quarter finals. I think that puts us fairly comfortably in the top eight. There was no shame in losing to Argentina in 1998, although there was massive shame in our capitulation to Germany. I don't think too many nations will have consistently done so well. For instance, South Korea and Turkey made the semi-finals once, but that doesn't make them better World Cup performers than us in recent years; we've been more consistent.

We aren't top 5, we're easily top 10, and we're probably closer to top 5 than you'd think, is my incoherant rambling for the evening.

Edit to add, thinking about it we have a better World Cup record than Argentina in recent years. Nothing to be massively ashamed of.
 
L

Lord Tisdale

Guest
bathpilgrim":2pflwft8 said:
5. Great point about "players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced" - well apart, from Andy Carroll,


You know, I was right there with you, and then......................
 
Lord Tisdale":38b3pmz5 said:
bathpilgrim":38b3pmz5 said:
5. Great point about "players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced" - well apart, from Andy Carroll,


You know, I was right there with you, and then......................

Actually, to be fair to Carroll and bathpilgrim, Carroll is in truth one of the stronger names on his list. His current form is entirely down to the way he has been shamefully misused at Liverpool.

Cast your mind back to a little over a year ago. Carroll was red-hot for Newcastle, and all the major clubs were after him. Wenger at Arsenal in particular, but Man City were also interested. The reason Liverpool paid stupid money for him was that they were desperate to beat off rival interest, and prise him free of Newcastle at least six months before they were really ready to sell.

So then what? You buy an old fashioned centre-forward, a holy terror in the air, and you totally starve him of crosses and expect him to play as a modern striker, a lone front-runner with the ball played to his feet. You might as well try to teach a hippo to dance!

If the total idiot behind Liverpool's tactical set-up (Dalglish or Steve Clark, whoever it is) tried providing Carroll with regular crosses, you would see a very different player, and very different results.