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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:57 am 
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Lord Tisdale wrote:
bathpilgrim wrote:
5. Great point about "players of sufficently high enough quality are not being produced" - well apart, from Andy Carroll,



You know, I was right there with you, and then......................


Actually, to be fair to Carroll and bathpilgrim, Carroll is in truth one of the stronger names on his list. His current form is entirely down to the way he has been shamefully misused at Liverpool.

Cast your mind back to a little over a year ago. Carroll was red-hot for Newcastle, and all the major clubs were after him. Wenger at Arsenal in particular, but Man City were also interested. The reason Liverpool paid stupid money for him was that they were desperate to beat off rival interest, and prise him free of Newcastle at least six months before they were really ready to sell.

So then what? You buy an old fashioned centre-forward, a holy terror in the air, and you totally starve him of crosses and expect him to play as a modern striker, a lone front-runner with the ball played to his feet. You might as well try to teach a hippo to dance!

If the total idiot behind Liverpool's tactical set-up (Dalglish or Steve Clark, whoever it is) tried providing Carroll with regular crosses, you would see a very different player, and very different results.

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:47 am 
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bathpilgrim wrote:
I'm sorry that England are a world footballing force, I know it hurts you, but we have a real chance in the summer. If I would you I would sit back, swallow your pride, get behind England (where you live after all) and enjoy some decent football


Actually, whether you believe this or not, I would be delighted to see England do well this summer.

And yes, I will be watching the England games with my mates and wishing them well.

The major difference between you and me is that I don't agree England are a major footballing force, I don't believe they have a realistic chance of success, and am pretty sure we will see a repeat of past tournament failures..... and that's not Welsh wishful thinking, that's impartial angered conviction.

The England team set-up, and indeed the whole organisation of the English game, is horrendous, shot through with major problems, and makes the chances of success very slim indeed.

For starters, look at who you've got running the game! The f**king English FA! A bunch of effete ars*holes who couldn't organise a bonk in a brothel! And they've just surpassed themselves with the Terry/Capello debacle. A fine way to prepare for a major tournament a few months away!

The list of other problems is endless, (and there is insufficent room to list them all here; it needs a thread of it's own) but the combined effect is to send an England team time after time to tournaments in a woeful condition. And then people wonder why they fail! :furious:

It's like a stuck record, there's been over forty years over it now, and yet nothing gets done! All we get is the same ridiculous and groundless optimism before each tournament, and the same shattering let-down.

Chr*st, I'm Welsh, and it makes me angry enough! If I was English I would be incandescent with rage by now.

And that is why I don't understand people like you, bathpilgrim. Your attitude lets the b*stards responsible off the hook. If we go along happily believing that England are still a major contender, and that everything is the garden is just fine, there will NEVER be the necessary changes made. The "Suits" who run (and ruin) the game will go on trotting out the old excuses; "Oh we were unlucky", "oh we were tired after a long hard season", "oh, we were cheated", etc, etc. When the truth is they sent an England team out there to compete in a shooting war with a peashooter in their hand! :furious:

When other nations became frustrated at their lack of success, in particular the French and the Spanish, they launched a root and branch re-organisation of their entire game, including a clear stategy, precise delineation of powers (ie lets get Ferguson and the clubs put in their place :thumbs: ), selection policies, training and coaching windows and tactical set-ups. THAT IS WHAT THE ENGLISH GAME NEEDS TO DO!

If the English game continues the way it has, bathpilgrim, you will never see any different result. And eventually you will be talking of eighty years of hurt, and worse.

That wouldn't please me, that should make you English fans HOWL with rage. So when are you going to start applying the heat where it is required? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:49 am 
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Well said Jonesy, I go along with most of that. Let's put things in perspective, we are in footballing terms a big nation in as much as we have the history and a population of 50 million or so. I am not interested in stats when Capellos win record includes a host of games against principalities or countries with populations the size of Devon as when they play the Montenegros or Andorras of this world or even countries with populations of just a few million who number many more, all teams they should turn over with the minimum of fuss. I am not too bothered either by the odd lucky home win against in a friendly against Spain even if it did at least show some discipline against a vastly superior football team. I judge England and only really get excited by England when it is a competitive fixture and by that I mean in a tournament not a qualifier against the might of Bulgaria or Montenegro. The last such time this happened I saw abject draws against footballing superpowers The USA and Algeria and a narrow 1 goal win against another major force, was it Slovenia, followed by a 4-1 thumping against the first decent opposition we faced. In forty odd years I have only witnessed England winning a knockout game in a major tournament against one of the big 7 or 8 countries on a couple of occasions I think without trawling through the records. I don't think we have ever beaten Brazil in a knock out game, Germany once only as West Germany with home advantage, Italy I don't recall one but we might have, Holland once in the Euros I remember but I think that was with home advantage again, Spain I don't recall any, Argentina I don't recall any and so on. Not much to show for 40 odd years. So no, I don't consider us as one of the elite nations football wise but in the second group of teams that on it's day can cause problems for a top team but is not realistically going to challenge to win it. The last time I felt we could do so was the Bobby Robson team at Italia 90 when we were unfortunate to lose to Germany in the semi and would then have faced an Argentina side in the final with half their players suspended from taking part. I don't consider the present side to be as strong as that team in 1990.
Bathpilgrim has trotted out a long list of names to substantiate his claim that we produce top international players. From the list provided Joe Hart is the only one to have cracked it at full international level to date and could be considered a first choice pick, Wilshere might almost be in that category. If you look back to the best U21 squads and before that U23 squads we have produced in this country only a couple go on to make it as established full internationals. So out of all those names mentioned the vast majority will never be established internationals, a couple might make it, a couple will be occasional bit part players and the rest will fall by the wayside.


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:03 am 
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jerryatricjanner wrote:
Well said Jonesy, I go along with most of that. Let's put things in perspective, we are in footballing terms a big nation in as much as we have the history and a population of 50 million or so. I am not interested in stats when Capellos win record includes a host of games against principalities or countries with populations the size of Devon as when they play the Montenegros or Andorras of this world or even countries with populations of just a few million who number many more, all teams they should turn over with the minimum of fuss. I am not too bothered either by the odd lucky home win against in a friendly against Spain even if it did at least show some discipline against a vastly superior football team. I judge England and only really get excited by England when it is a competitive fixture and by that I mean in a tournament not a qualifier against the might of Bulgaria or Montenegro. The last such time this happened I saw abject draws against footballing superpowers The USA and Algeria and a narrow 1 goal win against another major force, was it Slovenia, followed by a 4-1 thumping against the first decent opposition we faced. In forty odd years I have only witnessed England winning a knockout game in a major tournament against one of the big 7 or 8 countries on a couple of occasions I think without trawling through the records. I don't think we have ever beaten Brazil in a knock out game, Germany once only as West Germany with home advantage, Italy I don't recall one but we might have, Holland once in the Euros I remember but I think that was with home advantage again, Spain I don't recall any, Argentina I don't recall any and so on. Not much to show for 40 odd years. So no, I don't consider us as one of the elite nations football wise but in the second group of teams that on it's day can cause problems for a top team but is not realistically going to challenge to win it. The last time I felt we could do so was the Bobby Robson team at Italia 90 when we were unfortunate to lose to Germany in the semi and would then have faced an Argentina side in the final with half their players suspended from taking part. I don't consider the present side to be as strong as that team in 1990.
Bathpilgrim has trotted out a long list of names to substantiate his claim that we produce top international players. From the list provided Joe Hart is the only one to have cracked it at full international level to date and could be considered a first choice pick, Wilshere might almost be in that category. If you look back to the best U21 squads and before that U23 squads we have produced in this country only a couple go on to make it as established full internationals. So out of all those names mentioned the vast majority will never be established internationals, a couple might make it, a couple will be occasional bit part players and the rest will fall by the wayside.


Well, here's a fact to make you sit up, and it's the pure, unvarnished truth!!!

THE LAST TIME ENGLAND BEAT A MAJOR SOCCER POWER IN THE KNOCK-OUT STAGES OF A WORLD CUP TOURNAMENT WAS WEST GERMANY IN THE 1966 FINAL!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I kid you not! They beat France in the 1982 tournament in Spain, and Argentina in the 2002 tournament in Japan, but both were in the group stages.

Their only knock -out successes since 1966 have been against the likes of Paraguay, Belgium, Poland and Cameroon. Decent teams but not what you would call the top circle.

Every time they have come up against a major power in the knock-out stages since 1966; Germany, Brazil, Argentina and Portugal, they've lost. :sad:

That's stretching over eleven touraments and 45 years so far! :oops:

That is another reason why the jingoistic optimism at every tournament falls so flat on the ears of us older ones! :roll: And why I say the England set-up needs radical overhaul.

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:51 am 
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How many big countries have Wales beaten in the last 16 then Jonesy?

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:26 pm 
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GreenSam wrote:
Bathpilgrim, if we were so good, why have we only made one World Cup Semi, and one Euro Semi on home soil in the past 46 years?

That ain't the form of a top 5 team is it?


England are recently being constantly compared to Spain, and in a very unfavourrable light.

If you go back 5 years Spain had a terrible historical record, no recent success, no world cup semi's, constant underachievers and suffered a humiliating loss to Norther Ireland. Not the form of a top 5 team. But look what happened since then.

Not saying that we will do the euro/WC double (I dont drink this time of day!) but with the right set up going into the euro's we may surprise a few people, especially if the younger players are given an opportunity. We had a great chance to bring youngsters through at the last world cup, and we blew it by selecting has beens. We do have some good promising players, we need to use them.


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Totally agree Womble, it is highly unlikely our has beens as you put it are capable of winning the Euros, so let's at least give the future a go and some tournament experience.


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:37 pm 

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GreenSam wrote:
Bathpilgrim, if we were so good, why have we only made one World Cup Semi, and one Euro Semi on home soil in the past 46 years?

That ain't the form of a top 5 team is it?


I thought that this debate was about England's chances in Euro '12 ? If so, then this post + some more recent ones seem irrelivant to me. How on earth can what happened in 1970 or 1982 or 2000 or even 2010 have anything to do with England's chances in 2012 ? We are likely to have as little as 3 players that started the match against Germany in Bloemfontein in 2010 + possibly a different captain + a different manager and that is only 2 years ago - so goodness knows what our failings against Argentina in 1986 have got to do with this conversation.

England are top seeds for Euro '12 + the 5th best team in the world according to FIFA + 4th favourites for Euro '12 according to the worlds bookmakers and their customers - based on recent results + (in the case of the booky markets) a considered view of our chances based mainly on our squad and the squads of our opposition. What happened in Mexico in 1970 is not important anymore.

Just to show that I am even handed, I will repeat what I have always said, that my money at the bookies will be going on Germany this summer and also say that whatever chance England did have has been reduced since losing one the best managers ever, one of the best club captains in the world and (for 2 crucial games at least) one of the best centre-forwards in the world. However, we are still serious contenders and I would not be in the slighest bit surprised if we did win the tournament.


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:52 pm 
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FWIW Bath my money would be on Germany too, followed by Spain and possibly Holland and I will be very surprised if the winner comes from outside of those 3. Greece proved anyone can win it I guess as did Zambia in The African Nations last weekend so of course we have a chance albeit a very slim one.


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:56 pm 

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bathpilgrim wrote:
GreenSam wrote:
Bathpilgrim, if we were so good, why have we only made one World Cup Semi, and one Euro Semi on home soil in the past 46 years?

That ain't the form of a top 5 team is it?


I thought that this debate was about England's chances in Euro '12 ? If so, then this post + some more recent ones seem irrelivant to me. How on earth can what happened in 1970 or 1982 or 2000 or even 2010 have anything to do with England's chances in 2012 ? We are likely to have as little as 3 players that started the match against Germany in Bloemfontein in 2010 + possibly a different captain + a different manager and that is only 2 years ago - so goodness knows what our failings against Argentina in 1986 have got to do with this conversation.

England are top seeds for Euro '12 + the 5th best team in the world according to FIFA + 4th favourites for Euro '12 according to the worlds bookmakers and their customers - based on recent results + (in the case of the booky markets) a considered view of our chances based mainly on our squad and the squads of our opposition. What happened in Mexico in 1970 is not important anymore.

Just to show that I am even handed, I will repeat what I have always said, that my money at the bookies will be going on Germany this summer and also say that whatever chance England did have has been reduced since losing one the best managers ever, one of the best club captains in the world and (for 2 crucial games at least) one of the best centre-forwards in the world. However, we are still serious contenders and I would not be in the slighest bit surprised if we did win the tournament.


We just expect too much. We have the best football league in the world, people almost automatically expect good national team results must follow. Sadly, it's not that easy. Look at Portugal, the better their league gets, the wore the national team performances. As a football nation we have to have that "winner's mentality", even if there are no grounds to support it.

Not only we have that problem though... I read somewhere that Poland considers the draw to be very favourable and that not advancing would be considered a national defeat. Dellusional? Maybe.. atypical for a football-crazed nation? Not really

We have a decent team but what we need is Spain's starting line-up... :)


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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Greenblooded1 wrote:
How many big countries have Wales beaten in the last 16 then Jonesy?


Since 1966? The answer is precisely the same number as England! NONE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The difference is we're not proclaiming ourselves the "fifth best team in the world", "serious contenders", or any of the other sh*te being bandied about.

I will repeat it one more time.... The England team's performance at major tournaments is like a stuck record, and has been for 45 years. It is not just bad luck. It is piss-poor planning and organisation. English football desperately needs a massive re-structuring, and the England set-up needs totally re-vamping; if the England team are ever to achieve success.

And while you've got "Ing-gur-lund" numpties with less grip on reality than the majority of the inhabitants of the local asylum; proclaiming everything is just fine and dandy, then those necessary changes will never be made.

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Jones the Green wrote:
Greenblooded1 wrote:
How many big countries have Wales beaten in the last 16 then Jonesy?


Since 1966? The answer is precisely the same number as England! NONE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The difference is we're not proclaiming ourselves the "fifth best team in the world", "serious contenders", or any of the other sh*te being bandied about.


Since the world began even? :lol:

We're not proclaiming ourselves the "fifth best team in the world" either you plonker, the rest of the world (except our dependants) is though :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: England Manager at Euro 2012
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:27 am 
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Greenblooded1 wrote:
Jones the Green wrote:
Greenblooded1 wrote:
How many big countries have Wales beaten in the last 16 then Jonesy?


Since 1966? The answer is precisely the same number as England! NONE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The difference is we're not proclaiming ourselves the "fifth best team in the world", "serious contenders", or any of the other sh*te being bandied about.


Since the world began even? :lol:

We're not proclaiming ourselves the "fifth best team in the world" either you plonker, the rest of the world (except our dependants) is though :lol:


Dearie me, GB1, surely you can't have forgotten the oldest rule of debate, that he who first
resorts to common abuse has lost the argument?!!! :lol:

Mind you, as a Tory, you must be used to losing arguments, as the Tories have never actually got one!!! :roll:

I feel really sorry for the vast majority of England fans, the decent knowledgable football folk. because they have to put up with a real idiot fringe. The know-nothing numpties, the sort who are all arrogance and bombast, who boo the national anthem of other countries. The sort who think being English automatically makes them the best, and that no skill, hard work, organisation or application is necessary for success. And who continue to believe that, even after 45 years of failure clearly shows it is not true.

I have no problem with the normal England fans who hope for ther best, and who loyally support their team. They are good people and deserve a bit of success.

But then there's the "Ing-gur-lund numpties", who despite being a minority, unfortunately make the team hated and a laughing stock throughout the world. Who poison the whole thing with their arrogance, racism, boasts and totally unrealistic proclaimations. The sort of mentality typified by the S*n newspaper, who put pictures of England players in World War Two helmets on the front cover, on the morning of a Semi-final against Germany. "For you, Fritz, the tournament is over!" they screamed in their sickening headline. Was there anyone in the World of sound mind who actually found that funny?

If, as I expect, England have their usual tournament disaster this summer, I will be sad for my mates, and for the vast majority of the England fans.

But for some people, such a result would be very just desserts indeed, and for such people there would be only one possible response........ :funny: :funny: :funny:

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