But what you don't seem to grasp is there's a shed load of over-whelming evidence the government response has been......errrrr..... 'sub-optimal' in many different respects. The question is how much can the blame be laid at the door of the scientific advice (as they are now scape-goating) or their own political competence and policies. The fact they want to deliberately obviscate (is that the right word?.....sounds good!) .....they deliberately obviscate the decision making process and their own track record of wilfully distorting evidence, statistics and facts certainly strongly suggests to any reasonable person they are the main culprits. At the end of the day THEY are the government - THEY make policy. To quote the president of the Royal society again:-

"Scientists like me are invited to give advice and have no power to enact any decisions. They don’t have to accept the advice, and indeed should take a wider view than the science when making decisions – they are elected by the population to take decisions on our behalf.”

To duck that responsibilty is gutless & cowardly.

There you go again - you've decided that the government is treating scientists as scapegoats and that they're obfuscating. Guilty as charged - but how do you know that?

Could it actually be that they did follow the collective advice of Sage all the way through - just like they first said they would in early March? Just like when they followed the herd immunity strategy (remember that ). Just like when others were critcising relaxing of lockdown measures, Whitty was happy to be quoted endorsing the move.

And as you requoted the President, I will too "They don’t have to accept the advice ..." which by association means they can also accept the advice.

As I say, if there's a case to answer then I'm all for calling them into question. But as it stands, there has been barely a murmur from any members of Sage - except of course when Ferguson said that while present (and he shouldn't have been IMO) Cummings had no influence on proceedings. But again, that got ignored because it didn't suit the narrative I suppose.

Oh and BTW, again, that other advice may well be valid but it doesn't matter in the context of this question - which is basically about the relationship between the Government and its own advisers. Conflating the argument with quotes from a lot of scientists critcising with the benefit of three months hindsight - yeah, right I guess we all know better now eh Ave_IT? Where were they in February? They may well have held those opinions, but why weren't they out there saying that Sage and The Government had herd immunity strategy all wrong? There certainly were critics back then - especially in the international community, so why weren't the media carrying those reports front and centre? Why wasn't the critcism stronger then?

The answer? Because nobody really knew what would happen and so many of us were wrong, weren't we? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[PL2 3DQ]

I was supportive of the Government during what is an unprecedented crisis, any Government would have made mistakes during this crisis but since Boris Johnson's address to the nation on a Sunday night a few weeks ago they have been a shambles.

The latest shambles is the news that Dominic Cummings broke lockdown rules with the Government defending him. He has to resign or be sacked, otherwise the wrong message is sent to the public.

Also Laura Kuenssberg should take a long hard look at what her actual job is.

I was supportive of the Government during what is an unprecedented crisis, any Government would have made mistakes during this crisis but since Boris Johnson's address to the nation on a Sunday night a few weeks ago they have been a shambles.

The latest shambles is the news that Dominic Cummings broke lockdown rules with the Government defending him. He has to resign or be sacked, otherwise the wrong message is sent to the public.

Also Laura Kuenssberg should take a long hard look at what her actual job is.

Pretty much agree with all of that.

[PL2 3DQ]

Transport Minister Grant Shapps thrown under the bus for today's briefing when Boris Johnson should be there to answer questions on Cummings.

The lockdown back in March and the current lockdown policy is completely undermined by Cummings and the refusal of the Government to sack him. Unbelievable! Cummings is more important than any Government lockdown guidelines.
How can the public take any future guidelines seriously?

And it emerges Cummings' wife has a sister living in the London area.

Busy day for the Cabinet what's app group making sure everyone on message.

I was supportive of the Government during what is an unprecedented crisis, any Government would have made mistakes during this crisis but since Boris Johnson's address to the nation on a Sunday night a few weeks ago they have been a shambles.

The latest shambles is the news that Dominic Cummings broke lockdown rules with the Government defending him. He has to resign or be sacked, otherwise the wrong message is sent to the public.

Also Laura Kuenssberg should take a long hard look at what her actual job is.

Agree with all that, except I don’t understand the Laura Kuernsbeg bit. What have I missed?

[PL2 3DQ]

I was supportive of the Government during what is an unprecedented crisis, any Government would have made mistakes during this crisis but since Boris Johnson's address to the nation on a Sunday night a few weeks ago they have been a shambles.

The latest shambles is the news that Dominic Cummings broke lockdown rules with the Government defending him. He has to resign or be sacked, otherwise the wrong message is sent to the public.

Also Laura Kuenssberg should take a long hard look at what her actual job is.

Agree with all that, except I don’t understand the Laura Kuernsbeg bit. What have I missed?

In a few tweets she attempted to speak on behalf of the Government by defending them and doubted the truth of the story from the Mirror.

As the revelations, visits and sightings grow, of course he should be sacked. Only yesterday, his father denied he had been there.

Embarrassingly his chums will do all they can to protect him and keep him. An easy target for the new a Labour leader but will he go for it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8350755/Ministers-squirm-insist-Dominic-Cummings-did-NOT-break-rules.html

Dominic Cummings visited his parents' home TWICE and took a trip 30 miles away, say new eyewitnesses as maverick No10 chief's excuse for travelling 260 miles while self-isolating with Covid-19 crumbles after he insisted he 'doesn't care' if it looks bad

I was supportive of the Government during what is an unprecedented crisis, any Government would have made mistakes during this crisis but since Boris Johnson's address to the nation on a Sunday night a few weeks ago they have been a shambles.

The latest shambles is the news that Dominic Cummings broke lockdown rules with the Government defending him. He has to resign or be sacked, otherwise the wrong message is sent to the public.

Also Laura Kuenssberg should take a long hard look at what her actual job is.

So they have only been a shambles SINCE that speech? U sure about that? Not the latest lockdown in western Europe, allowing Cheltenham, giving up on test and trace, no quarantine for arrivals, lack of prep such as shortage of PPE, lack of strategy for care homes and so on. All that is forgiveable is it?Thats without mentioning the austerity policies of last 10 years leaving shortages in NHS. We sure are in safe hands at a time of crisis.

Ah BG. Still forgetting that on 17th March you were telling someone on this thread to stop making ‘a drama out of a crisis’ and to ‘get some perspective’?

Ah BG. Still forgetting that on 17th March you were telling someone on this thread to stop making ‘a drama out of a crisis’ and to ‘get some perspective’?

And the relevance is....?

As the revelations, visits and sightings grow, of course he should be sacked. Only yesterday, his father denied he had been there.

Embarrassingly his chums will do all they can to protect him and keep him. An easy target for the new a Labour leader but will he go for it.

I'm sure Starmer will go for it - why shouldn't he?

I think that what it comes down to, really, is that Johnson would have no idea what to do without Cummings breathing in his ear, Grima Wormtongue-like, so in a desperate attempt to hang on to him he'll just brazen it out, as he's done his entire life, because he has no shame. Neither of them do. They feel impervious.