[Biggs]

Not everyone agrees with removing statues and re-naming things.

Probably best to concentrate on football matters rather than politics !

This is a thread about naming a square after an Argyle legend, which surely we can all get on board with.

It’s not political, it’s been confirmed it’s going to be renamed anyway, so let’s make sure it’s Jack

NO more political comments or snipes, please.

There are alternative points of view, and here's one of them...

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... rk-4213108

Missed the point!

The name has been taken down, so there's no debate the name has gone.

We're suggesting the new name.

there's no debate.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing myself !

There are alternative points of view, and here's one of them...

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... rk-4213108

Ok read it
What I got from that is:
1. Because slavers did some good stuff (with the money they made from slavery), they should be honoured
2. Because people wouldn't know who Hawkins was it didn't matter
3. It'll cause more division
(code for: it'll pee people off who think we should just keep these things in place forever)
4. It's 'whitewashing history
(so hang on, it's NOT whitewashing history to have these statues and road names in place with no mention of these people's misdeeds?!)
5. Finally, and the funniest part of the whole thing, Britain doesn't have a massive problem with racism:
Well, windrush seems to suggest otherwise and the very fact we have a head of state who writes that black people are Picanninies with watermelon smiles

Why do you think we should keep John Hawkins name in parts of the city?

There are alternative points of view, and here's one of them...

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... rk-4213108

Ok read it
What I got from that is:
1. Because slavers did some good stuff (with the money they made from slavery), they should be honoured
2. Because people wouldn't know who Hawkins was it didn't matter
3. It'll cause more division
(code for: it'll pee people off who think we should just keep these things in place forever)
4. It's 'whitewashing history
(so hang on, it's NOT whitewashing history to have these statues and road names in place with no mention of these people's misdeeds?!)
5. Finally, and the funniest part of the whole thing, Britain doesn't have a massive problem with racism:
Well, windrush seems to suggest otherwise and the very fact we have a head of state who writes that black people are Picanninies with watermelon smiles

Why do you think we should keep John Hawkins name in parts of the city?

It's a shame that, in the present day, we are seeking to assume offence on behalf of those who may not, or should not, be offended. In some parts of the world, pickaninny is widely used by black people to describe their children. In New Guinea, Creole countries, Melanesia and Vanuatu it is still part of the language. It was not ever an offensive term used by white people intended to insult until some 'right on' journalist decided it was. I find it offensive that I am constantly supposed to apologise for being white, male, protestant and straight. I think I must be amongst the only genuine minority group left.

Wow.


Who's making you apologise for being white, male, protestant and straight? I'm three of those things and have never had to - do you need all four? Or does "being made to apologise" consist of "I've seen people point out the awful treatment of people of colour"?


This is totally off topic and will no doubt get the thread moved/deleted - but such rubbish needs to be challenged when it's seen.


To bring this back to football and Argyle - I'd really love a statue of Leslie and also one of Sammy Black at Home Park. I have it in mind from talk of other statues in the past that you'd be looking at a cost of min £30k for a statue, which is probably what makes it difficult.

Maybe a mural/big canvas print/etc would be more achievable? This kind of thing:

There are alternative points of view, and here's one of them...

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... rk-4213108

Ok read it
What I got from that is:
1. Because slavers did some good stuff (with the money they made from slavery), they should be honoured
2. Because people wouldn't know who Hawkins was it didn't matter
3. It'll cause more division
(code for: it'll pee people off who think we should just keep these things in place forever)
4. It's 'whitewashing history
(so hang on, it's NOT whitewashing history to have these statues and road names in place with no mention of these people's misdeeds?!)
5. Finally, and the funniest part of the whole thing, Britain doesn't have a massive problem with racism:
Well, windrush seems to suggest otherwise and the very fact we have a head of state who writes that black people are Picanninies with watermelon smiles

Why do you think we should keep John Hawkins name in parts of the city?

Great idea - signed.

As I have said on the topic sir Francis drake why not knock down the city of Lagos and world heritage site timbukto. There can be no bigger monument to slavery because there existence is because of it. The African tribesmen bought there captives there to sell them to the european slave traders.

[Ponty]

Wow.


Who's making you apologise for being white, male, protestant and straight? I'm three of those things and have never had to - do you need all four? Or does "being made to apologise" consist of "I've seen people point out the awful treatment of people of colour"?


This is totally off topic and will no doubt get the thread moved/deleted - but such rubbish needs to be challenged when it's seen.


To bring this back to football and Argyle - I'd really love a statue of Leslie and also one of Sammy Black at Home Park. I have it in mind from talk of other statues in the past that you'd be looking at a cost of min £30k for a statue, which is probably what makes it difficult.

Maybe a mural/big canvas print/etc would be more achievable? This kind of thing:

Perhaps we could get the FA to pay for it to part redeem the actions of their colleagues all those years ago?

I think it’s a great idea.
Signed, posted and donated.
From my memory wasn’t the Hawkins pub renamed years ago?
I, for one, couldn’t care less about a slave trading sailor, whatever philanthropic acts he carried out.
Slavery, in all its guises, then and NOW, is morally bankrupt!!

Wow.


Who's making you apologise for being white, male, protestant and straight? I'm three of those things and have never had to - do you need all four? Or does "being made to apologise" consist of "I've seen people point out the awful treatment of people of colour"?


This is totally off topic and will no doubt get the thread moved/deleted - but such rubbish needs to be challenged when it's seen.


To bring this back to football and Argyle - I'd really love a statue of Leslie and also one of Sammy Black at Home Park. I have it in mind from talk of other statues in the past that you'd be looking at a cost of min £30k for a statue, which is probably what makes it difficult.

Maybe a mural/big canvas print/etc would be more achievable? This kind of thing:

Perhaps we could get the FA to pay for it to part redeem the actions of their colleagues all those years ago?

I think the story is being spun somewhat.. There is only speculation that Jack Leslie was ignored due to the colour of his skin. He was chosen to be a stand-by for a squad and was never selected again. Some people are suggesting he was called up and was then discarded once they discovered that he was black but that wasn't the case. Why did he never get another call? We can only surmise what those reasons were.

[Ponty]

Wow.


Who's making you apologise for being white, male, protestant and straight? I'm three of those things and have never had to - do you need all four? Or does "being made to apologise" consist of "I've seen people point out the awful treatment of people of colour"?


This is totally off topic and will no doubt get the thread moved/deleted - but such rubbish needs to be challenged when it's seen.


To bring this back to football and Argyle - I'd really love a statue of Leslie and also one of Sammy Black at Home Park. I have it in mind from talk of other statues in the past that you'd be looking at a cost of min £30k for a statue, which is probably what makes it difficult.

Maybe a mural/big canvas print/etc would be more achievable? This kind of thing:

Perhaps we could get the FA to pay for it to part redeem the actions of their colleagues all those years ago?

I think the story is being spun somewhat.. There is only speculation that Jack Leslie was ignored due to the colour of his skin. He was chosen to be a stand-by for a squad and was never selected again. Some people are suggesting he was called up and was then discarded once they discovered that he was black but that wasn't the case. Why did he never get another call? We can only surmise what those reasons were.

Is this your opinion or fact?

I don't mean "cabbie" fact either.

In a Daily Mail interview in 1978, Leslie recalls the day he received the news.

"One day, a Tuesday, as I remember it, the manager calls me in.

"'Johnnie' he says, 'I've got great news for you. You've been picked for England.'

"It was quite a thing for a little club like Plymouth to have a man called up. Then the papers came out a day or so later and Billy Walker of Aston Villa was in the team, not me."

It later emerged that the real reason behind the decision was down to FA officials, who stated that they hadn't known that he was, as they called him, "a man of colour."

Jack's daughter Evelyn recalls her father's England disappointment.

"It would have been the icing on the cake, but it was taken away from him.

"He had a lot of disappointments because of his colour."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/series6/jack_leslie.shtml

But sure, whatever.