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Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 08:08 09 Aug 2020
by Mike E
No one has said Whelan that, unlike you and Ninja, Floyd was a model citizen, but taking sides is a little worrying. If you are going to draw a line in this debate surely you'd be more worried you'd be seen to have the Klu Klux Klan in your corner

Surely you must find it worrying one human being can act as judge and jury and use the power of their uniform to summarily execute another human being.

Maybe you don't find it worrying we are having this debate that black lives are institutionally worthless.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 10:25 09 Aug 2020
by ninjamissile
Mike E wrote: No one has said Whelan that, unlike you and Ninja, Floyd was a model citizen, but taking sides is a little worrying. If you are going to draw a line in this debate surely you'd be more worried you'd be seen to have the Klu Klux Klan in your corner

Surely you must find it worrying one human being can act as judge and jury and use the power of their uniform to summarily execute another human being.

Maybe you don't find it worrying we are having this debate that black lives are institutionally worthless.

Now that's what I call worrying, and I have no idea what you mean by institutionally worthless.

People have been traumatised and are obviously feeling a bit emotional about things. You'll be telling us next that the protests over there are all peaceful...

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 06:55 10 Aug 2020
by Ade the green
Whelan11 wrote:
Ade the green wrote:
ninjamissile wrote:
Ade the green wrote:
ninjamissile wrote: George Floyd resisted arrest. He complained about being claustrophobic, which was clearly untrue. Well before the kneeling he complained about being unable to breathe, which was clearly untrue.

I imagine that the officer kneeling on his neck had this in his mind at the time. Did he intend or try to kill George Floyd? I think there's a good argument that he didn't, particularly as the whole episode was in full public view and was being recorded by many on their phones. Certainly a case for manslaughter but not for murder. Will the officer get a fair trial? Can't see it happening - you can imagine the trouble there'll be if the verdict is anything other than murder.



Chauvin was a police officer with enough experience that he was training rookie officers. With enough experience you must expect that he’d arrested more than his share of whites and blacks and yet his own training went out the window and he knelt on someone’s neck for nine minutes. Time it, nine minutes is not an abhoration, it’s murder, not even manslaughter. His colleagues by doing nothing are abetting murder. Chauvin and George once worked together as bouncers, do you think there might be some residual ill feeling between the two.

Nine minutes, count it out.

I'm not sure how the police over there are trained to suppress people resisting arrest whereas you clearly are. I'm in no position to argue about that, I'm sure it'll all come out during the trial. Did he intend to kill him? Really? You can believe that without any doubt at all? I can't.

And your 9 minutes is an inflated figure. The original figure quoted was 8m 48s, which you've rounded up, but that figure has been disproved and it's been amended to 7m 46s. Still too long obviously.


Having lived in the States for 5 years around the time of 911 I’ve seen personally a few instances of policing but as a white male I doubt I’d have seen the same experience showed to Floyd George.
Trying to pick an argument between 9 minutes and the revised 7 minutes 46 seconds is disgusting and I doubt if you were pinned by your neck to the road that 1 minute 14 seconds would give you much cause for relief. You’re dead either way.


ninjamissile I'm hoping is a good citizen and would never be in that situation where he's on drugs/committing crime/resisting arrest...so that's neither here or there because it would never happen to him.

We all have choices, and our choices can either make other peoples choices easy or hard (as in, choosing not to resist, he would still be alive), but choosing to resist made the police officers choice difficult and unfortunately George allowed Chauvin that choice to be too physical.

Let's not forget George was about to drive away before the police got there. Clearly he was in no state to drive, so who knows, he may have been in a serious crash and was a threat to the public.

From those on George's side, I'm never hearing 'George did do wrong'. At least we are able to admit the police officer was OTT. Both George and the officer did wrong, yet those on George's side don't seem to want to take any accountability for his actions and that worries me.



You’re probably right about ninjamissile and no doubt everybody going about their lives peaceable can expect to not have to deal with the police in that matter. So how do you equate what you’ve said to Breona Taylor? Dancing in her own living room of her own home when a policeman shot her 8 times. Or, and I’m sorry I forget his name which is unforgivable of me but let’s just say a black man, in his own home shot and killed by an off duty police officer because he happened to be going to his front door to see who’s just walked into his home.

Now, I expect you to come back with excuses for the officers or examples of when white men and women were shot and killed in their own homes!!! a place where everyone SHOULD feel safe.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 09:29 10 Aug 2020
by Whelan11
Ade the green wrote:
Whelan11 wrote:
Ade the green wrote:
ninjamissile wrote:
Ade the green wrote:
ninjamissile wrote: George Floyd resisted arrest. He complained about being claustrophobic, which was clearly untrue. Well before the kneeling he complained about being unable to breathe, which was clearly untrue.

I imagine that the officer kneeling on his neck had this in his mind at the time. Did he intend or try to kill George Floyd? I think there's a good argument that he didn't, particularly as the whole episode was in full public view and was being recorded by many on their phones. Certainly a case for manslaughter but not for murder. Will the officer get a fair trial? Can't see it happening - you can imagine the trouble there'll be if the verdict is anything other than murder.



Chauvin was a police officer with enough experience that he was training rookie officers. With enough experience you must expect that he’d arrested more than his share of whites and blacks and yet his own training went out the window and he knelt on someone’s neck for nine minutes. Time it, nine minutes is not an abhoration, it’s murder, not even manslaughter. His colleagues by doing nothing are abetting murder. Chauvin and George once worked together as bouncers, do you think there might be some residual ill feeling between the two.

Nine minutes, count it out.

I'm not sure how the police over there are trained to suppress people resisting arrest whereas you clearly are. I'm in no position to argue about that, I'm sure it'll all come out during the trial. Did he intend to kill him? Really? You can believe that without any doubt at all? I can't.

And your 9 minutes is an inflated figure. The original figure quoted was 8m 48s, which you've rounded up, but that figure has been disproved and it's been amended to 7m 46s. Still too long obviously.


Having lived in the States for 5 years around the time of 911 I’ve seen personally a few instances of policing but as a white male I doubt I’d have seen the same experience showed to Floyd George.
Trying to pick an argument between 9 minutes and the revised 7 minutes 46 seconds is disgusting and I doubt if you were pinned by your neck to the road that 1 minute 14 seconds would give you much cause for relief. You’re dead either way.


ninjamissile I'm hoping is a good citizen and would never be in that situation where he's on drugs/committing crime/resisting arrest...so that's neither here or there because it would never happen to him.

We all have choices, and our choices can either make other peoples choices easy or hard (as in, choosing not to resist, he would still be alive), but choosing to resist made the police officers choice difficult and unfortunately George allowed Chauvin that choice to be too physical.

Let's not forget George was about to drive away before the police got there. Clearly he was in no state to drive, so who knows, he may have been in a serious crash and was a threat to the public.

From those on George's side, I'm never hearing 'George did do wrong'. At least we are able to admit the police officer was OTT. Both George and the officer did wrong, yet those on George's side don't seem to want to take any accountability for his actions and that worries me.



You’re probably right about ninjamissile and no doubt everybody going about their lives peaceable can expect to not have to deal with the police in that matter. So how do you equate what you’ve said to Breona Taylor? Dancing in her own living room of her own home when a policeman shot her 8 times. Or, and I’m sorry I forget his name which is unforgivable of me but let’s just say a black man, in his own home shot and killed by an off duty police officer because he happened to be going to his front door to see who’s just walked into his home.

Now, I expect you to come back with excuses for the officers or examples of when white men and women were shot and killed in their own homes!!! a place where everyone SHOULD feel safe.


Well exactly, I can come back at you with examples of white people being killed unlawfully. It's not a race issue, it's a policing issue, in terms of poor recruitment and poor training. No excuses for the police.

My problem is the massive uproar from BLM and the media who immediately spout 'racism!' Which will obviously anger a lot of people which then leads to riots, lootings, more murders, topplong of statues etc. Are you just assuming every time a white police officer does harm to a person of colour it's racist? Because that's what it feels like.

Jack Leslie Square: Update

Posted: 18:27 14 Aug 2020
by briangreen
Frankly I can't understand why we're kowtowing to the BLM who are nothing more than a group of left-wing Marxists, who at its core beliefs don't give two hoots about black folk.
How would defunding the police help the situation? No police equals no law and order and total anarchy.
A few extremist complain about the name and the Labour dominated council immediately jump into agreement. Ignore our seafaring history and try to airbrush the bits they don't like.
Hawkins was involved in the slave trade, but it was the African tribal chiefs who rounded up and sold those slaves in the first place. Not one left wing student or black person has registered a complaint concerning those chiefs, in fact they've named houses, streets and even an airport after them.
My conclusion is leave the square alone, because it's a bad reason to change it and let's get the statue up, not because Jack Lesley was black but because he was a great footballer and a decent man by all accounts.

Way too many politics in that post for the main forum

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 18:45 14 Aug 2020
by up_the_line
Hawkins was massively involved in the slave trade which killed innocent people. Regardless of any philanthropy from his gains, no one should want their city tarnished with his name and no amount of the usual what-aboutery will convince me otherwise.
If you want Hawkins name up, as far as I'm concerned you condone his actions and that's enough for me to know exactly what type of beliefs you hold

Re: Jack Leslie Square: Update

Posted: 05:44 15 Aug 2020
by Ade the green
briangreen wrote: Frankly I can't understand why we're kowtowing to the BLM who are nothing more than a group of left-wing Marxists, who at its core beliefs don't give two hoots about black folk.
How would defunding the police help the situation? No police equals no law and order and total anarchy.
A few extremist complain about the name and the Labour dominated council immediately jump into agreement. Ignore our seafaring history and try to airbrush the bits they don't like.
Hawkins was involved in the slave trade, but it was the African tribal chiefs who rounded up and sold those slaves in the first place. Not one left wing student or black person has registered a complaint concerning those chiefs, in fact they've named houses, streets and even an airport after them.
My conclusion is leave the square alone, because it's a bad reason to change it and let's get the statue up, not because Jack Lesley was black but because he was a great footballer and a decent man by all accounts.

Way too many politics in that post for the main forum




I’ll only answer one point in your post. Defund the police does not mean no police officers or no money for police officers. In America police are funded differently to in the U.K. where your analogy might be correct. However in America the police are part funded by Special interest groups which advocate the police’s leanings toward certain ways of practising law enforcement.
A purely state funded police force should be free from political will but this is not the case. Anyone can make donations to the police forces in their town or city and much of that money goes towards electing police chiefs and sheriffs. People with no knowledge of the law can and do get elected into a serious occupation so in many places, where the systemic racism is rife is because the racism starts at the top. A racist police chief can appoint anyone into the police department and training is not the same from state to state and city to city. At the same time, large donors expect the law to work for them and regard themselves as priority within a legal framework.
That’s the defunding the BLM are asking for. The answer could be a non political federal police force although we’ve seen how the DoJ in the US is as open to bribes as any other aspect of American life.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 10:45 15 Aug 2020
by Biggs
I would add that ‘defund the police’ is a terrible slogan because of the easy misunderstanding we just saw in the post above.

And doesn’t really work in this country, where we’ve actually seen too many police cuts.

In America it basically means stop spending so much money on guns and weapon training, and spend it on social care etc to stop the root causes of crime.

But again, the messaging needs works because ‘defund the police’ isn’t a slogan your average citizen will agree with.

Re: Jack Leslie Square: Update

Posted: 12:47 15 Aug 2020
by Balham_Green
briangreen wrote: Frankly I can't understand why we're kowtowing to the BLM who are nothing more than a group of left-wing Marxists, who at its core beliefs don't give two hoots about black folk.
How would defunding the police help the situation? No police equals no law and order and total anarchy.
A few extremist complain about the name and the Labour dominated council immediately jump into agreement. Ignore our seafaring history and try to airbrush the bits they don't like.
Hawkins was involved in the slave trade, but it was the African tribal chiefs who rounded up and sold those slaves in the first place. Not one left wing student or black person has registered a complaint concerning those chiefs, in fact they've named houses, streets and even an airport after them.
My conclusion is leave the square alone, because it's a bad reason to change it and let's get the statue up, not because Jack Lesley was black but because he was a great footballer and a decent man by all accounts.

Way too many politics in that post for the main forum



So according to your analysis we put a statue for every 'great footballer' who was a 'decent man'. Will be a lot of statues around.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 07:21 18 Aug 2020
by signalspast

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 11:08 18 Aug 2020
by Whelan11
signalspast wrote: https://www.facebook.com/569022853258776/posts/1607586302735754/


Still waiting for the BBC to report this, instead they seem hell bent on reporting on black people being pulled over by white police officers, even though we don't know the whole story yet as to why they were pulled over.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 12:00 18 Aug 2020
by ninjamissile
Whelan11 wrote:
signalspast wrote: https://www.facebook.com/569022853258776/posts/1607586302735754/


Still waiting for the BBC to report this, instead they seem hell bent on reporting on black people being pulled over by white police officers, even though we don't know the whole story yet as to why they were pulled over.

I assume you're talking about Dawn Butler? The disgraceful MP in the car as a passenger with blacked out windows? Being driven by a white man? Concrete proof of racial profiling.. That's all gone a bit quiet since she was rumbled.

At the weekend I quite enjoyed seeing a small bunch of Antifa/BLM attend a biker rally somewhere in the US and one of them kicking a bike. They needed a police escort out of the place for their own safety. Not so brave when outnumbered but just as stupid.

Re: BLM, Taking a knee and THAT symbol of racism

Posted: 20:14 29 Aug 2020
by Larry David
Couple of takeaways for me from this whole debate. Firstly people who say “if you don’t agree with BLM you must agree with fascism” really? So if I’m not a Marxist I must be a fascist? Stupid argument. Secondly if everything is racist then ultimately nothing is. Think about that for a second.