Okay the first thing is indo think we will leave with no deal. Not of intent on either side but agreement has got to be by all 27 nations on there side. I consider Spain will throw the Gibralter bomb in which the uk government cannot give into because it wont only involve spain but will open a can of worms over the falklands.
Nissan well I linked the Japan times which shows the concerns of the japanese car market. The government are aware of it and it's one of the reasons an agreement will come about. There will be changes with more parts being made in uk instead of coming from the eu. Whilst Nissan say one thing they are building a new battery plant for electric cars beside the current sunderland plant.
I dont work in the industry but listen to my financial advisor and somebody I know who works for BOE in Zurich. He says things totally over my head with figures but as I said agreements switzerland USA Japan Pacific asia agreement and China will leave the EU needing London
Now as many predictions that there are saying that london will suffer there are as many that say it's the eu that will suffer. People like the ex head (name escapes me) head of the IMF before Lagarde that says london and uk will thrive. Depends what side of the fence you sit and what you wish to believe but whichever side it's just opinions.

Oh they will still have access as europe cannot stop financial trade under gats it just wont be unfettered and wont be as quick. Also that's why 1000 financial institutions from europe have already set up in london to ensure eu institutions have access to the rest of the world.

Its not opinions its what the banks and car manufacturers have said, we still don't think there will be no deal, its just too insane.

Nissan have launched their electric car production in Sunderland, its their best and most efficient plant in Europe, but as they say the business is unsustainable here if no deal, not just because of disruption of just in time with Customs checks, and 10% tariffs, (not only on the finished product but every time parts cross the channel), but crucially because of quotas which could freeze them out of the European market entirely. That's over half the sales gone overnight.

European institutions don't have to be in London to trade with the rest of the world , they choose to because London is the hub of European finance and they can access the world from here. However to trade within the single market you must have the financial passport which is only available to EU/EFTA members. So the Chinese and American banks would have to transfer from London to a European City and set up an entity there in order to access EU markets. People talk about fish and other nonsense but Mr Barnier has repeatedly warned that without an agreement covering a level playing field on goods and services the UK and London based international institutions will lose access to EU markets. Its our choice.

The first thing is you dont need the financial passport to trade with europe. It just makes it easier like switzerland and many other countries you can trade under GATS regs which is like the WTO of the financial services. As I said read the link from money week it doesnt appear to take any side but points out that 12 months ago europe were making the same noises to switzerland about European passport etc. The reality is it's made little difference to the trade between them.
You quoted what people are saying until it happens it is just a projection by them so its opinion. As I said Europe for four years have been trying to lure the trade away with little success and the fact that over 1000 european institutions are creating hubs in london tends to say they are making arrangements to overcome any problems of brexit. The hubs are not opinions its fact it's happening.
Nissan the first thing it will be up to us if we impose tariffs on parts coming across from europe so there is no definitive on it. I linked the japan times which shows both governments are aware of the automobile industry and the importance to japan.
The chinese well there link to london was opened in 2019 just at the height of brexit dogma. Do you think they would have set up in london if they had any doubts about london remaining the major centre whatever the consequences of brexit. They wouldnt of if they had any doubts they would have waited to see which way the tide went and then set up whichever country was best for them.
Now for Mr Barnier and what he says think on it he is negotiating on behalf of the EU and is bigging up his side to try and get the best deal for them. Do you really think the 90 billion difference where we buy more and trade more from them than they do us is going to stop. No it's not the trade will go on but with tariffs.
Finally I have said we will leave on no deal since the referendum see no reason for a change of heart. I have stated the Gibralter bomb but nearly every country has there own agenda and I am sure there are many that I haven't thought of. For instance Belgium it's not only the country that needs to agree but every region within that country.

My friend your references are interesting but not relevant to the points I made. Not least because the UKs relationship as a major competitor on their doorstep shapes their unique approach to our future relationship.

Specifically, Switzerland has a very good relationship with the EU, are not a threat and have agreed the level playing field. We say we won't, and as a major competitor will be excluded from selling financial products within the single market without the financial passport.

Japan are holding out on a trade deal until they see our future relationship with Europe.

It is not a projection or opinion that the CEO of Nissan says their business is unsustainable if theres no deal. Its what they know. You seem confused about tariffs, its irrelevant if we impose them, they will , and more crucially as I said if there's bad blood in no deal they will freeze out all British made cars through quota limitations. Remember nothwithstanding the trade deficit we are a tiny part of the EUs overall trade, and by freezing out eg UK cars it opens up the internal market to their car makers eg BMW can sell more cars to replace the absence of UK imports.

As regards Mr Barnier, he hasn't moved one inch in 4 years on the substantive issues of level playing fields, food standards workers rights etc and they wont. Why? Well firstly they would be mad to give a major local competitor a competitive advantage, and more crucially if you allow a non member equivalent benefits without playing by the rules then what's the point of the EU? They will never compromise on the integrity of the single market.

I'm not interested in the politics of Brexit, its done, however we must safeguard our relationship with the the biggest free trading market in the world on our doorstep or we will be hit with a 2nd economic hit pretty much equal to the upcoming one from the corona virus crisis. 8% GDP according to Government figures, and I think that's an underestimate as it doesn't allow for the knock on effect of the decimation of the car industry, farmers the city etc. If That's what people voted for thats fine but its not what they were promised.

i will attempt to take your points in chronological order firstly Switzerland they have over 120 individual agreements with the eu and discussions had been going on for several years on financial services. 12 months ago the eu had a hissy fit because switzerland would not bow to what the eu wanted. they done to them what they say will happen to the uk. as the moneyweek report shows there trading under Gats terms has had little effect on them.

Japan is not witholding trade talks till after the transition period they are in discussions and there trade minister stated at the middle of last month that they hope to get an agreement by the end of July to get it passed through their parliament in october.

Nissan. Yes i have heard what he states about the 54 per cent but this is just politics talk in an attempt to get the best for his company. yes i can here you laughing at me already but let me explain. Lets say a no deal occurs and both sides place tit for tat tariffs and quotas. so what are the figures where the 54 per cent delve from. Well in 2017 we exported 800000 vehicles to the EU of which Nissan would have a fair share. However that same year we imported 2.3 million cars from the EU. As you can see if the tariffs are imposed the sale of cars would effect the eu far greater than uk where Nissan are able to profit from the difference due to less imports. these figures are from the european automobile manufacturers association. I will say though the figures are reversed for car parts.

https://www.acea.be/news/article/automo ... u-partners

Mr Barnier and level playing field. well his definition of it is having the ECJ having arbitrary decision making on anything they think is a divergence from it. this is not a level playing field like it wouldn't be a level playing field if we said the uk to have arbitrary control on anything the eu diverge from. no for it to be level it has to be an independent body somebody like the WTO to decide. Food Standards having worked for many years in the technical department of a major food supplier i can give many instances where european standards do not come up to uk standards and many breaches of the standards. What i will say though European manufacturers follow BRC standards like many countries around the world.

i will agree with you on one thing though us being a major competitor on their doorstep and yes it bothers them.

Okay the first thing is indo think we will leave with no deal. Not of intent on either side but agreement has got to be by all 27 nations on there side. I consider Spain will throw the Gibralter bomb in which the uk government cannot give into because it wont only involve spain but will open a can of worms over the falklands.
Nissan well I linked the Japan times which shows the concerns of the japanese car market. The government are aware of it and it's one of the reasons an agreement will come about. There will be changes with more parts being made in uk instead of coming from the eu. Whilst Nissan say one thing they are building a new battery plant for electric cars beside the current sunderland plant.
I dont work in the industry but listen to my financial advisor and somebody I know who works for BOE in Zurich. He says things totally over my head with figures but as I said agreements switzerland USA Japan Pacific asia agreement and China will leave the EU needing London
Now as many predictions that there are saying that london will suffer there are as many that say it's the eu that will suffer. People like the ex head (name escapes me) head of the IMF before Lagarde that says london and uk will thrive. Depends what side of the fence you sit and what you wish to believe but whichever side it's just opinions.

Oh they will still have access as europe cannot stop financial trade under gats it just wont be unfettered and wont be as quick. Also that's why 1000 financial institutions from europe have already set up in london to ensure eu institutions have access to the rest of the world.

Its not opinions its what the banks and car manufacturers have said, we still don't think there will be no deal, its just too insane.

Nissan have launched their electric car production in Sunderland, its their best and most efficient plant in Europe, but as they say the business is unsustainable here if no deal, not just because of disruption of just in time with Customs checks, and 10% tariffs, (not only on the finished product but every time parts cross the channel), but crucially because of quotas which could freeze them out of the European market entirely. That's over half the sales gone overnight.

European institutions don't have to be in London to trade with the rest of the world , they choose to because London is the hub of European finance and they can access the world from here. However to trade within the single market you must have the financial passport which is only available to EU/EFTA members. So the Chinese and American banks would have to transfer from London to a European City and set up an entity there in order to access EU markets. People talk about fish and other nonsense but Mr Barnier has repeatedly warned that without an agreement covering a level playing field on goods and services the UK and London based international institutions will lose access to EU markets. Its our choice.

The first thing is you dont need the financial passport to trade with europe. It just makes it easier like switzerland and many other countries you can trade under GATS regs which is like the WTO of the financial services. As I said read the link from money week it doesnt appear to take any side but points out that 12 months ago europe were making the same noises to switzerland about European passport etc. The reality is it's made little difference to the trade between them.
You quoted what people are saying until it happens it is just a projection by them so its opinion. As I said Europe for four years have been trying to lure the trade away with little success and the fact that over 1000 european institutions are creating hubs in london tends to say they are making arrangements to overcome any problems of brexit. The hubs are not opinions its fact it's happening.
Nissan the first thing it will be up to us if we impose tariffs on parts coming across from europe so there is no definitive on it. I linked the japan times which shows both governments are aware of the automobile industry and the importance to japan.
The chinese well there link to london was opened in 2019 just at the height of brexit dogma. Do you think they would have set up in london if they had any doubts about london remaining the major centre whatever the consequences of brexit. They wouldnt of if they had any doubts they would have waited to see which way the tide went and then set up whichever country was best for them.
Now for Mr Barnier and what he says think on it he is negotiating on behalf of the EU and is bigging up his side to try and get the best deal for them. Do you really think the 90 billion difference where we buy more and trade more from them than they do us is going to stop. No it's not the trade will go on but with tariffs.
Finally I have said we will leave on no deal since the referendum see no reason for a change of heart. I have stated the Gibralter bomb but nearly every country has there own agenda and I am sure there are many that I haven't thought of. For instance Belgium it's not only the country that needs to agree but every region within that country.

My friend your references are interesting but not relevant to the points I made. Not least because the UKs relationship as a major competitor on their doorstep shapes their unique approach to our future relationship.

Specifically, Switzerland has a very good relationship with the EU, are not a threat and have agreed the level playing field. We say we won't, and as a major competitor will be excluded from selling financial products within the single market without the financial passport.

Japan are holding out on a trade deal until they see our future relationship with Europe.

It is not a projection or opinion that the CEO of Nissan says their business is unsustainable if theres no deal. Its what they know. You seem confused about tariffs, its irrelevant if we impose them, they will , and more crucially as I said if there's bad blood in no deal they will freeze out all British made cars through quota limitations. Remember nothwithstanding the trade deficit we are a tiny part of the EUs overall trade, and by freezing out eg UK cars it opens up the internal market to their car makers eg BMW can sell more cars to replace the absence of UK imports.

As regards Mr Barnier, he hasn't moved one inch in 4 years on the substantive issues of level playing fields, food standards workers rights etc and they wont. Why? Well firstly they would be mad to give a major local competitor a competitive advantage, and more crucially if you allow a non member equivalent benefits without playing by the rules then what's the point of the EU? They will never compromise on the integrity of the single market.

I'm not interested in the politics of Brexit, its done, however we must safeguard our relationship with the the biggest free trading market in the world on our doorstep or we will be hit with a 2nd economic hit pretty much equal to the upcoming one from the corona virus crisis. 8% GDP according to Government figures, and I think that's an underestimate as it doesn't allow for the knock on effect of the decimation of the car industry, farmers the city etc. If That's what people voted for thats fine but its not what they were promised.

i will attempt to take your points in chronological order firstly Switzerland they have over 120 individual agreements with the eu and discussions had been going on for several years on financial services. 12 months ago the eu had a hissy fit because switzerland would not bow to what the eu wanted. they done to them what they say will happen to the uk. as the moneyweek report shows there trading under Gats terms has had little effect on them.

Japan is not witholding trade talks till after the transition period they are in discussions and there trade minister stated at the middle of last month that they hope to get an agreement by the end of July to get it passed through their parliament in october.

Nissan. Yes i have heard what he states about the 54 per cent but this is just politics talk in an attempt to get the best for his company. yes i can here you laughing at me already but let me explain. Lets say a no deal occurs and both sides place tit for tat tariffs and quotas. so what are the figures where the 54 per cent delve from. Well in 2017 we exported 800000 vehicles to the EU of which Nissan would have a fair share. However that same year we imported 2.3 million cars from the EU. As you can see if the tariffs are imposed the sale of cars would effect the eu far greater than uk where Nissan are able to profit from the difference due to less imports. these figures are from the european automobile manufacturers association. I will say though the figures are reversed for car parts.

https://www.acea.be/news/article/automo ... u-partners

Mr Barnier and level playing field. well his definition of it is having the ECJ having arbitrary decision making on anything they think is a divergence from it. this is not a level playing field like it wouldn't be a level playing field if we said the uk to have arbitrary control on anything the eu diverge from. no for it to be level it has to be an independent body somebody like the WTO to decide. Food Standards having worked for many years in the technical department of a major food supplier i can give many instances where european standards do not come up to uk standards and many breaches of the standards. What i will say though European manufacturers follow BRC standards like many countries around the world.

i will agree with you on one thing though us being a major competitor on their doorstep and yes it bothers them.

Utter nonsense on every point tarnished by the exceptionalism that blinds economic realities.

Respectfully you've set out the same points and drawn absurd conclusions based on what appears to be its an evenly weighted match. The UK is 10 times smaller than the EU and will not compromise on any aspect of the single market that would threaten its integrity, its the raison d'etre of the Union.

With Switzerland you ignored the salient points that they are not a large competitor that has just left the Union and they play by the rules. We say we will not play by the rules. The comparison is entirely spurious.

Japan will not make any decision on an agreement until they know our future relationship with the EU. They'd be crazy to do so, and the closeness of our relationship will guide the depth of the agreement particularly with regard to the non-discrimination elements with the EU.

The Nissan they need us more than we need them nonsense, was debunked 4 years ago, BMW have said repeatedly they can live with no deal as it opens up the European market for them and of course the decision about retaining the integrity of the single market is way above their paygrade. They support the solidarity of the 27 and the terms of trade hit - small in terms of the size of the single market - is not a huge problem and certainly not worth endangering the entire project.

Your understanding of the level playing field concept is at best naive and loaded with bias re EU v WTO when they are entirely different kinds of bodies although essentially acting in its members interests. I don't think you really understand what the WTO is and the economic realities of trading on those terms without agreements with your closest neighbours, its economic armageddon. The EUs position is simple, they have minimum food standards , workers rights and all they are asking is for us is to abide by these. You say our standards are better so if we don't intend to cut our food standards what's the problem? We set many of these standards as an EU member and should be proud of that, now until at least 31 December we are accepting standards and laws from the EU without having any say in making the laws. And if we want to retain the benefits of the single market we will have to keep doing so, for example as Norway & Switzerland do.

Finally you say our presence as a competitor bothers them. Nothing about the UK bothers them, your loaded language infers we are in conflict with them, thats not the way they see it. They are economic pragmatists, even outside the EU they want us in the single market because it makes us all stronger, and if we leave the single market we will suffer the inevitable consequences, there will be no joy on their part, I travel a lot in Europe and they see us a good friend going through a mental breakdown.

Totally agree Cambsgreen, it is clear that the main strategy of the core of those who have any strategy at all with regard to this madness, other than xenophobia, is to blow smoke up the rear end of the US. And look what a nut job they are turning out to be.

Throw in China, Russia, Middle East, India and Brazil to name a few, and what a frightening and unstable world we will need to face alone whilst alienating our natural allies in Europe.

After this pandemic our government wouldn't dare try negotiating with the US on anything to do with our healthcare or NHS, so all they have to negotiate with is our food standards and the sell out of our farming industry.

Johnson et al have lead us out of something we were a part of building, but we are here now and it is apparently what the people want. We have left, we are out and must accept it. But those same people who have lead us out, since being given the reins of power over the last six months, have demonstrated that their lassez faire approach to government is just a series of waffle, sound bites and chaos theory, ie let's just hope for the best. It is clear that they don't believe in plans and are happy to gamble with our lives and wellbeing whilst leaving everything to chance.

With ref to the OP it would be quite interesting to take a poll, only from those who voted leave, how they feel about 3m would be asylum seekers from Hong Kong being given citizenship here. I bet we could guess their answer

Your reply of utter nonsense is quite amusing. Because I gave reasons and could give linkage to my thinking and it doewnt suit your narrative its nonsense.
Now yes the uk is ten times smaller than the eu however it says a lot that there is a trade and service deficit of 90 billion pounds per year in the uk s favour. The next arguement about we are against 27 so it divides the amount. No it doesnt that 90 billion is from six countries within the 27 and as they are showing with the virus and next budget they will fight like feral pole cats to try and ensure they dont pay something for another country. Hence it's not a division but a multiplication
Switzerland no I am ot ignoring the point. The point that the uk is in talks with them and that when they agree the two countries have an agreement that the EU refused and then threw them out of the partnership. They do that to a friend says everything. Anyway when its agreed the trading platform will be 100 times greater than frankfurt and paris combined. Along with Japan USA and China which is already here the big boys in financial services would have a mutual trading agreements between themselves and the eu will be left looking in. Oh they have already failed to get the financial agreements with japan and usa.

Japan your saying they wont agree until afterwards is a remain myth. The trade minister in talks just two weeks ago stayed that they hope to conclude the talks by the end of july. This was to ensure everything could be prepared to get it through there parliament in october. Yes its agreed it will be difficult but much of it is already agreed because they are piggy backing the eu agreement but are adding a few things to it like finance and services.

Nissan the figures I gave wasnt about them it was from the (european) automobile manufacturers association. Which showed 1.9 million more cars are sold by them to us. You then quote BMW as being able to live with it because the 800000 cars we export wont be in the european market. Mmmmm a bit of hypocrisy there surely Nissan can live here with the 1.9 million difference if BMW can live with 800000.
Level playing field and my being biased towards wto. I dont think I said anything in favour of the wto my arguement was that you cannot have either side having the ultimate arbitrary control of any dispute mechanism like the eu want for the ECJ. The WTO I just used as an example of a.body that's independant of the two sides. It could be a body of names drawn up by both sides that are experts in the field of dispute.
Are standards are better from animal welfare food standards Employment standards the problem is the ECJ being the arbitrary decision maker in disputes. You describe things as benefits I see them as trading relationships norway and switzerland sell more stuff to the eu than they purchase, the uk is the opposite way around we buy more from them than they sell to us..
Um I was replying to your part as a major competitor on their doorstep so if they are not bothered about it and are just economic pragmatist they will see that what the uk proposes makes sense for their welfare and the UKs
Now we wont agree on the way things will go because like all projections are opinions is just that it's what we think how things will go only time will tell and I fully expect we will land somewhere in the middle but for you to deride my arguements as utter nonsense just shows that you are being blind to anything that can be put up as an arguement for brexit.

My friend I won't go through all the points again, I'm wasting my time as you don't address the substantive issues, but eg Japan are holding out on Financial Services because they want to see what our future relationship is with EU and whether they can sell their products into Europe via the UK.

You say I'm against Brexit, which is simply not true, it's happened and everyone should accept that..

All that matters now is the economics, our future relationship with our closest trading partners and our country's prosperity. As Boris Johnson once said " "I would vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market". Even he didn't vote for leaving that !

There is simply no rational argument that you can leave the biggest free trading single market in the world, to which we sell nearly half our stuff , becoming the only country on the planet without an agreement with our nearest neighbours, and not inflict massive economic damage that will affect all of us for generations.

Wow, I've just seen that anything remotely political or that could constitute an opinion - every word I wrote myself, in fact - has been eradicated from my OP. How scarily appropriate, since this is fundamentally about China's crushingly authoritarian way of doing things.

Are we not allowed to speculate about Brexit and xenophobia, or the government's reasoning, on this specifically opinions board any more?

That was extremely heavy-handed, and clearly amounted to censorship - of views that were nowhere near as contentious as many that have appeared on this board.

[Daz]

Wow, I've just seen that anything remotely political or that could constitute an opinion - every word I wrote myself, in fact - has been eradicated from my OP. How scarily appropriate, since this is fundamentally about China's crushingly authoritarian way of doing things.

Are we not allowed to speculate about Bexit and xenophobia on this specifically opinions board any more?

That was extremely heavy-handed, and clearly amounted to censorship - of views that were nowhere near as contentious as many that have appeared on this board.

I didn’t edit it, but we had several people report it as racist as your language whilst clearly in my opinion was sarcastic was not appropriate. This is a meant to be a football forum, the majority of the moderating that the guys have had to do recently has been nothing to do with football and all to do with people political opinions.

Racist?!? WTF? Yes, it was sarcastic - and mischievious - to make a point. Jeez. The heavy-handed moderator in question does realise that David Cameron referred to "swarms" of immigrants, does he or she?

And by the way, this particular board is an opinions forum. Unbelievable.

Meanwhile, I see that TruroTerry, now presumably banned, still has his obnoxious views on full display for all to read. And if I was so racist, why didn't I receive some kind of warning? Ridiculous.

Wow, I've just seen that anything remotely political or that could constitute an opinion - every word I wrote myself, in fact - has been eradicated from my OP. How scarily appropriate, since this is fundamentally about China's crushingly authoritarian way of doing things.

Are we not allowed to speculate about Bexit and xenophobia on this specifically opinions board any more?

That was extremely heavy-handed, and clearly amounted to censorship - of views that were nowhere near as contentious as many that have appeared on this board.

I didn’t edit it, but we had several people report it as racist as your language whilst clearly in my opinion was sarcastic was not appropriate. This is a meant to be a football forum, the majority of the moderating that the guys have had to do recently has been nothing to do with football and all to do with people political opinions.

Hang on. When has the opinions board ever had anything to do with football? That’s its’ purpose surely, to express opinions on other subjects.

[GreenThing]

Meanwhile, I see that TruroTerry, now presumably banned, still has his obnoxious views on full display for all to read. And if I was so racist, why didn't I receive some kind of warning? Ridiculous.

When taken out of context your post looked racist, which is why it was removed. We received reports about the post and had to remove it to prevent further misunderstandings.

If you had posted it to be racist you would have been banned, no doubt about it, but as it was posted as sarcasm and no intent, there was no need for a warning.

I edited the post on behalf of the mod team and did it in a way that I thought would preserve the meaning of the thread but also to ensure that the offending parts were removed. The other option would have been to pull the entire thread, which I feel would have been unfair.

"Offending"... Talk about faux outrage, from those several people who apparently reported the post. There was literally not a racist word or view in there.

[GreenThing]

"Offending"... Talk about faux outrage, from those several people who apparently reported the post. There was literally not a racist word or view in there.

There were phrases which some would deem as racist towards the french and germans. It’s the world we live in today, unfortunately.