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Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 14:34 11 Sep 2020
by signalspast
Ave_IT wrote:
signalspast wrote: As I have said I will wait until the second reading until I make a judgement. Unlike yourself who is taking hearsay the remain side and the EU as the b and end all. If and I repeat if Barnier has made the threats and they can show that there has been bad faith in the negotiations than its grounds to repudiate the whole agreement and not just try to make adjustments to it. Should they be right I doing what they are doing rhen they are trying to protect British interests which you should be hoping that they undertake.

Oh FFS! A government minister stood up in parliament in public and said we are going to break international law.

THAT IS NOT HEARSAY.

It matters not what the EU may or may not be threatening (THAT IS hearsay by the way) - regarding the deal now being negotiated. They can threaten and we can threaten whatever we like. That’s what negotiations are all about. The law is the law ……..and when you’ve signed a treaty you have to stick by it…..that’s what international law means.. You can’t just say “Oh you’re being so beastly now we’re going to break the treaty we signed before”. You simply cannot retrospectively pick and choose bits you want to stick by AFTER you’ve signed up to something. It’s a pretty bloody basic principle of any binding contract let alone law.


Yes he did and he also stated that its a small measured action to protect British interests as I said next week during the second reading I will decide who is right or wrong then. The government are going to have to justify there actions to their backbenchers so I would think lots of information will come out then. It might well be that they can't justify it but whatever has been said will be documented. IF they manage to justify it then the breach could well look a minor action that rhey have took.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 15:00 11 Sep 2020
by Quinny
Actually, it's a whole lot more than a small, measured action, especially if you read what is proposed in the Bill. But that's irrelevant: breaking international law a little bit is no different to breaking it in a big way: you're still breaking the law. Oh, and Suella Braverman is quite wrong when she says that there is a difference between breaching ministerial code and that breaking international law isn't the same as breaking domestic law. That has already been determined in the Courts.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 16:18 11 Sep 2020
by Ave_IT
signalspast wrote:
Ave_IT wrote:
signalspast wrote: As I have said I will wait until the second reading until I make a judgement. Unlike yourself who is taking hearsay the remain side and the EU as the b and end all. If and I repeat if Barnier has made the threats and they can show that there has been bad faith in the negotiations than its grounds to repudiate the whole agreement and not just try to make adjustments to it. Should they be right I doing what they are doing rhen they are trying to protect British interests which you should be hoping that they undertake.

Oh FFS! A government minister stood up in parliament in public and said we are going to break international law.

THAT IS NOT HEARSAY.

It matters not what the EU may or may not be threatening (THAT IS hearsay by the way) - regarding the deal now being negotiated. They can threaten and we can threaten whatever we like. That’s what negotiations are all about. The law is the law ……..and when you’ve signed a treaty you have to stick by it…..that’s what international law means.. You can’t just say “Oh you’re being so beastly now we’re going to break the treaty we signed before”. You simply cannot retrospectively pick and choose bits you want to stick by AFTER you’ve signed up to something. It’s a pretty bloody basic principle of any binding contract let alone law.


Yes he did and he also stated that its a small measured action to protect British interests as I said next week during the second reading I will decide who is right or wrong then. The government are going to have to justify there actions to their backbenchers so I would think lots of information will come out then. It might well be that they can't justify it but whatever has been said will be documented. IF they manage to justify it then the breach could well look a minor action that rhey have took.

You cannot justify breaking international law. End of.

If you unilaterally decide to break any part of a treaty you signed up to then the whole thing is worthless. Short of them declaring war on us it cannot be justified. No matter how much you may regret it, no matter any circumstsnces that may have changed you have to abide by it until you renegotiate and sign another treaty to supercede it. What is so difficult to understand?

Let me ask you - how would you and the Daily Mail brigade have reacted if the EU had said they were going break international law months after signing a treaty? Would it be OK if (in their view) it was just a "specific & limited" breaking of the law.? Just imagine the uproar!

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 21:19 11 Sep 2020
by oldage
Ave_IT wrote:
oldage wrote: I do not know who the government's Chief Lawyer was but if he is anything like the other three you mentioned who cares what they think. Hardly credible objectors.

Credible objectors? Don’t you get it? Our own government say categorically they’re breaking the law – you don’t have to take anybody’s word for it. It’s not an opinion, it’s not anybody’s opinion. It comes from their own mouths.

Two former Tory Prime Ministers, a former right wing Tory leader and virtually every lawyer says that is a very bad way for any nation that doesn’t want to be considered a rogue state to behave.

I do get it. You are for ever putting the current government down. The law is an ass and the two former Prime Ministers and former Tory leader didn't exactly pull up trees when they were in office.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 23:23 11 Sep 2020
by Martyn
Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 06:32 12 Sep 2020
by oldage
Martyn wrote: Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.


In your opinion they are respected.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 09:00 12 Sep 2020
by MickyD
oldage wrote:
Martyn wrote: Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.


In your opinion they are respected.

Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't respect them, so their opinions are worthless, so it's OK for us to break international law when it suits us, thus turning ourselves into an untrustworthy pariah state just as we become increasingly desperate to negotiate countless trade deals when we already had close to zero bargaining power even before we renege on a legally binding agreement with the largest trading bloc in the world?

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 11:34 12 Sep 2020
by oldage
MickyD wrote:
oldage wrote:
Martyn wrote: Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.


In your opinion they are respected.

Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't respect them, so their opinions are worthless, so it's OK for us to break international law when it suits us, thus turning ourselves into an untrustworthy pariah state just as we become increasingly desperate to negotiate countless trade deals when we already had close to zero bargaining power even before we renege on a legally binding agreement with the largest trading bloc in the world?

Desperate to negotiate countless trade deals? Where do you get this rubbish from? I think you will find other nations are desperate to do deals with us e.g.Japan.Typical remainer ,whatever we do to leave the EU will not be right.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 11:54 12 Sep 2020
by Willis88
oldage wrote:
MickyD wrote:
oldage wrote:
Martyn wrote: Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.


In your opinion they are respected.

Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't respect them, so their opinions are worthless, so it's OK for us to break international law when it suits us, thus turning ourselves into an untrustworthy pariah state just as we become increasingly desperate to negotiate countless trade deals when we already had close to zero bargaining power even before we renege on a legally binding agreement with the largest trading bloc in the world?

Desperate to negotiate countless trade deals? Where do you get this rubbish from? I think you will find other nations are desperate to do deals with us e.g.Japan.Typical remainer ,whatever we do to leave the EU will not be right.


Well the US have said they won't do a deal with us if the bill goes through.

To be fair they probably would but that's just because they want to take a good bite of the NHS for their drug companies.

We will get deals, we will trade, but none on as good of terms as we have enjoyed being in the EU.

I believe the proposed deal with New Zealand actually sees the average Briton marginally worse off, and that's New Zealand.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 12:10 12 Sep 2020
by MickyD
oldage wrote:
MickyD wrote:
oldage wrote:
Martyn wrote: Oh,we get it.
This government should be put down, they are a disgrace.

This law is their law, their agreement, can’t you see it.

Even respected former PM’s are telling them.


In your opinion they are respected.

Let me see if I've got this straight: you don't respect them, so their opinions are worthless, so it's OK for us to break international law when it suits us, thus turning ourselves into an untrustworthy pariah state just as we become increasingly desperate to negotiate countless trade deals when we already had close to zero bargaining power even before we renege on a legally binding agreement with the largest trading bloc in the world?

Desperate to negotiate countless trade deals? Where do you get this rubbish from? I think you will find other nations are desperate to do deals with us e.g.Japan.Typical remainer ,whatever we do to leave the EU will not be right.

This Japan Trade Deal?
Critics said while the deal may be of symbolic importance it would boost UK GDP by only 0.07%, a fraction of the trade that could be lost with the EU.

That's £700,000 for every £1,000,000,000 traded.
Friday's deal still needs approval by Japan's parliament, which the country's Foreign Minister Toshimitsu Motegi forecast would be passed by January.

Assuming that we, or they, don't renege on it beforehand, of course.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 12:32 12 Sep 2020
by Martyn
Other critics state, that the new trade deal with Japan, is not as good, as the current trade deal the EU has with Japan.

Therefore, are we better of or not. We are going to be worse off , outside of Europe, Also poorer, and our reputation will be shot to pieces, because of us breaking a International law.
, and to do this NOW, in the middle of pandemic, is nothing short of utter recklessness.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 12:41 12 Sep 2020
by MickyD
All neatly and pithily summed up by Jonathan Freedland in oldages's favourite newspaper (The Guardian) today:

The party of unionism agreed to put a border down the Irish Sea. Regretting that now, the party of law and order breaks the law.

Re: Help me please. What is the government’s WA position?

Posted: 14:36 12 Sep 2020
by oldage
MickyD wrote: All neatly and pithily summed up by Jonathan Freedland in oldages's favourite newspaper (The Guardian) today:

The party of unionism agreed to put a border down the Irish Sea. Regretting that now, the party of law and order breaks the law.


The only Guardian I read is the Cornish Guardian, wiseguy. How many times have the EU broke the law/failed to abide by it?