How do you stop a player leaving if he wants to go? Man U and Liverpool haven't managed it so why should we?

Replacing like for like was the big problem for us as CCC wages had spiralled to ridiculous levels which we couldn't afford along with a lot of other clubs at the same level. We were paying players way under what they could get elsewhere.

To replace those players with the same quality we would have had to pay out transfer fees of 1M+ and pay them 10k+ a week. We were punching way above our weight to the credit of the managers that had brought those players in but it came to an end when those players left.

Correct. And the claim by Greenskin that SEB was the only 'unavoidable' sale back then is wrong, in my view. Norris, for instance, was desperate to go to Ipswich and threatened never to play for Argyle again in the closing days of his transfer saga (as Stapes made public in his pre-Leicester game bombshells). How could Argyle have kept him - without paying a wage that would have been way beyond reach?

And trying to keep Gosling would have been daft, as well. The Buzsaky deal was less clear-cut, but the club was not in a strong position to turn down half a million for a player who would have gone for nothing in the summer.

As for X Isle's post, his analysis of supporter expectations at that time is correct. But I don't think it's right for anybody to claim that those expectations were to blame for what went wrong. It's the job of a board of directors to resist unrealistic expectations, to be strong and to pay out only what a business can afford to pay out in fees and wages. In that respect, the board has failed - and it was starting to fail before Kagami turned up, let alone Todd and Gardner.

Manchester Green's post at the top of the previous page is spot on, as well, I think.

Entirely agree with this. It is the job of the Directors (including PS) to ensure the business does not lose control of expenditure. They failed, and cannot hide from this.
With this in mind, a clean sweep is needed, as I do not believe the fanbase could be united behind a new board containing any remnant of the current regime.

Maybe you need to check the poll on this issue. It reads otherwise.

Let's kick start 'Operation Valkerie' if Paul Stapleton is kept on the board.

Not sure I follow your point NCB.

Would you support a current Director(s) prepack?
We need a complete clean sweep.
62% [ 133 ]

Indeed, and if you add in the Once bitten twice shy mob its over 70%.

How do you stop a player leaving if he wants to go? Man U and Liverpool haven't managed it so why should we?

Replacing like for like was the big problem for us as CCC wages had spiralled to ridiculous levels which we couldn't afford along with a lot of other clubs at the same level. We were paying players way under what they could get elsewhere.

To replace those players with the same quality we would have had to pay out transfer fees of 1M+ and pay them 10k+ a week. We were punching way above our weight to the credit of the managers that had brought those players in but it came to an end when those players left.

Correct. And the claim by Greenskin that SEB was the only 'unavoidable' sale back then is wrong, in my view. Norris, for instance, was desperate to go to Ipswich and threatened never to play for Argyle again in the closing days of his transfer saga (as Stapes made public in his pre-Leicester game bombshells). How could Argyle have kept him - without paying a wage that would have been way beyond reach?

And trying to keep Gosling would have been daft, as well. The Buzsaky deal was less clear-cut, but the club was not in a strong position to turn down half a million for a player who would have gone for nothing in the summer.

As for X Isle's post, his analysis of supporter expectations at that time is correct. But I don't think it's right for anybody to claim that those expectations were to blame for what went wrong. It's the job of a board of directors to resist unrealistic expectations, to be strong and to pay out only what a business can afford to pay out in fees and wages. In that respect, the board has failed - and it was starting to fail before Kagami turned up, let alone Todd and Gardner.

Manchester Green's post at the top of the previous page is spot on, as well, I think.

I think X Isle is simply trying to put a balance to the argument. All the finger pointing has been aimed at previous boards, previous directors, NWO as a group, Stapes as an individual etc etc. IMO the supporters should take some of the blame too! I hold my hands up to a certain degree. I'm green right through, and even I have criticised the 'lack of ambition' in the past. When the NWO came in with their 'millions' and empty promises, when the cheque book was opened for Sturrock, I was over the moon. You are correct Rupert that it is part of the board to resist, so they should have course take the majority of the responsibility for this mess.

Who's at fault for all this is is pretty irrelevant. Moaning, bitching, slating and threatening isn't going to get us out of this. Its like a footballer berating the ref for giving him a red card. It aint going to change, whats done is done

Bring on next season. League 2 here we come. Some cracking away trips to look forward to, loads of grounds I've not been. Lets start the Argyle rollercoaster again!!!!!

Still, at least we're all pulling in the same direction now. Right?

Even by your standards Smiffy, that is towards the top of the scale when it comes to self-righteous, moral high ground grabbing bulls**t.

Congrats.

Thanks Grumpy, now I know why X-Isle isn't paying any attention to the responses

So X-Isle = graiser = Smiffy ?

As Meatloaf would say - "two outa three aint bad" .

I'll take a £10.00 bet with you Rupert.

Loser pays into the Trust.

Up for it?

No bets, but I have seen what's in the Herald and the WMN on Monday...

I'll take a £10.00 bet with you Rupert.

Loser pays into the Trust.

Up for it?

No bets, but I have seen what's in the Herald and the WMN on Monday...

Have you got tomorrows racing results as well please?

legend. I agree with every word of your post, and I would like to see Stapleton stay on as I feel he still has something to offer to get through this mess, but really for the good of the fans I think it would be a good idea if he decided that a completely new era was needed when we come through the other side. This mess wont easily be forgotten and will follow him around for years to come, a bit like the reputation Ridsdale has.

Sorry Ade but I just cannot get my head around this forgiveness rearguard action in support of Stapleton. ALL THIS HAPPENED ON HIS WATCH. Whatever he achieved previously, however much he is a 'true fan', however much we like the idea of a well-meaning local fan being on the board - THAT is the inescapable fact that cannot be avoided. Basically he couldn't have F****d up more if he'd tried.

Revisionist, guilt avoiding, blame shifting BOLLOX .

Out of interest, on your scale of f****d-up-edness where would failing to support Ollie (bankrolling Hayles, SEB, Halmosi, etc sit?). Had he kept us 'within our means' after Pulis had brilliantly trimmed our cloth and we'd dropped back into CCC mediocrity or even relegation a year or two sooner, would you have been saying anything different?, course you wouldn't .

The problems stem from an over-reach in our expenditure, compunded thereafter by an attempt to make good the over-reach by over-reaching some more. And where did the pressure for this over-reach come from?, who was badgering him on a daily basis to "push on"?, to "speculate to accumulate"?, to sign the Julio Goalio who'd take us to the premier league?.

Answer.......for all but a very small few..........all of us, that's who, you included.

It's all very well castigating an individual for our predicament but each and every one of you who pooh poohed the 'slowly slowly catchy monkey' mantra are every bit as much to blame as anyone in the boardroom. All they did was try to give you what you wanted. You were ungrateful then, castigating them for not spending more and now, in this all too convient revisionist demonisation of Stapleton, you are ungrateful now.

We should have lived within our means, some were saying it at the time and it's only them who are absolved from blame, the rest of you have Argyle's blood on your hands and no amount of finger pointing at Paul Stapleton will wash it off. You created the climate for what has followed YOU are reaping what YOU have sewn.

I have a very good memory and can recall vividly the long and bitter arguements we had on here about investment as I was one of the few who was extolling the virtues of restraint, of prudence, of patience. I copped a fair amount of abuse for my trouble as well, as did the others who could see that our historically pathetic support could not sustain a 'balls out' charge for a third promotion.

We are a 2nd/3rd tier club, we are average for a very good reason, our support is bigger than the little clubs but smaller than the big clubs - it's as simple as that. We should have stuck to the 'smaller, better, different' model that saw us rise from the basement on a relatively modest outlay, well within our means. We had no divine right to keep moving up because our fanbase has a limit and gets bored very easily - yet the pressure built month on month, transfer window on transfer window - to "push on", to "speculate to accumulate". FFS is there a collective amnesia sweeping over this site that conveniently forgets all those endless discussions?.

The vindication of my arguements then can give me no satisfaction whatsoever now, I hate where we're at just as much as anyone else. Where I differ from most of you however is that I have clear conscience and I don't seek to apportion blame on one individual, or a few individuals, who simply tried to please the baying pack of wolves ripping at their door, I was never in the pack. You put them under pressure so you share the blame, better still as you created the climate for the over-reach why don't you put YOUR hand up and take the majority of the blame?.

FFS if it's a question of oblivion or Paul Stapleton then is there really a f**king decision to be taken?.

If he does remain involved, or even if he doesn't, remember this discussion a wee bit more vividly than you remember the 'slowly slowly catchy monkey' ones. Don't ever ask the club to push itself beyond what the historically pathetic levels of support for a city of 250,000 can carry EVER AGAIN.

Oh do calm down a bit X-isle. I realise you’re keen trumpet how everybody in Plymouth & Devon has “blood on their hands” apart from your good self and a few brave fellow souls who fought heroically against the “baying pack of wolves”. But really…..Per-leease……Do calm down a bit.

Revisionist? I point the finger at the person in charge when the biggest calamity in our History occurred (God forbid but it could yet prove to be the biggest calamity to befall any professional Football club). I repeat ALL THIS HAPPENED ON HIS WATCH.There’s nothing revisionist about that – it is a simple undisputable fact. The person who was in a key position of responsibility and saw the club veer from making a profit of £1.5m to virtual liquidation in just a few years was Stapleton. Now on any scale of “F****ed –upedness” that is pretty bloody spectacular. There is nothing revisionist about that. Of course others are also culpable but he was the main man we trusted with the club's future.

Revisionist means taking hard facts like this and then re-interpreting and re-writing history and blaming others. For a start, I well remember debates about “going for it” when we were riding high or sticking with the “organic” model. Actually, you were NOT “one of the few”. The majority (including me) were well aware of the risks of “going for it”. We all saw what happened to Leeds & Bradford and are not stupid. Stapleton had virtual universal approval ratings back then. The overwhelming consensus on PASOTI was that we’d hit the glass ceiling and the only way to break thru’ was to try to get extra investment (i.e rich benefactors). Some did wonder aloud if Stapes and co. didn’t really want anyone else to play with their train set as he seemed to take a long time about it – but that was the closest the vast majority got to pushing him to “go for it”. Indeed the most hotly critical posts were AGAINST the purchase of the freehold. We welcomed and trusted his judgement when he did finally find the ‘investors’.

Now, at the risk further upsetting your own revisionist delusions– just how significant do you think that a dozen or so threads on PASOTI at that time were? Was Stapes really tossing & turning in a cold sweat at night because of some strongly worded posts? And how many posters were really critical? Ten? Twenty? Thirty maybe? Nowhere near a hundred I wager (Christ I doubt if we have that many regular posters even back in those halcyon days). So much then, for the “baying hounds” that drove poor Stapes over the edge into reckless spending. The average scout leader gets more sustained criticism. Nobody forced him to be Chairman and if he is so Lilly-livered he was the wrong man.

Look – HE invited Kagami & Gardner in (who are the real villains of the piece). It was a disastrous mistake and he clearly failed to do the due diligence. We’ve seen in recent weeks how a bit Googling & a few e-mails from fans uncovered disturbing facts about Kagami’s claims and background. But we’re all human and can make mistakes – although this was a gargantuan one. What is unforgivable is his silence as the NWO wreaked their havoc. Where was he when we spent half a million on a new pitch in the summer FFS? Did he not know the state we were in? At best he was negligent in his duties at worst complicit in the appalling folly (World Cup bid an ‘all).

ALL THIS HAPPENED ON HIS WATCH Go on then – deny it. ‘Revise’ that.

I'll take a £10.00 bet with you Rupert.

Loser pays into the Trust.

Up for it?

No bets, but I have seen what's in the Herald and the WMN on Monday...

Have you got tomorrows racing results as well please?

WMN top tip: Captain Cool, Wolverhampton, 3pm.

Still, at least we're all pulling in the same direction now. Right?

Which direction is that BG?

As far as I can see some people will continue to go whoever is in charge.

Some will only go if all of the current Board are gone

And theres probably another lot who wont go cause "its cr*p in the 4th division.

And at the begining of this season I worried about car parking

How do you stop a player leaving if he wants to go? Man U and Liverpool haven't managed it so why should we?

Replacing like for like was the big problem for us as CCC wages had spiralled to ridiculous levels which we couldn't afford along with a lot of other clubs at the same level. We were paying players way under what they could get elsewhere.

To replace those players with the same quality we would have had to pay out transfer fees of 1M+ and pay them 10k+ a week. We were punching way above our weight to the credit of the managers that had brought those players in but it came to an end when those players left.

Ask a certain Ian Holloway...

Regarding Charlie Adam.

Still, at least we're all pulling in the same direction now. Right?

Which direction is that BG?

As far as I can see some people will continue to go whoever is in charge.

Some will only go if all of the current Board are gone

And theres probably another lot who wont go cause "its cr*p in the 4th division.

And at the begining of this season I worried about car parking

Sarcasm Tony, sarcasm.

What a mess our football club is in. The only way out is for a clean start. We won't get that if amy of the current lot remain. If they do, then there will be no trust from the supporters, traders, sponsors etc.

That is why they all have to go. No excuses, no bargaining, no apportioning of blame, no nothing. Everyone goes, start again.

I'll take a £10.00 bet with you Rupert.

Loser pays into the Trust.

Up for it?

No bets, but I have seen what's in the Herald and the WMN on Monday...

Well Rupert, you have to admit that the Herald has hardly been infallible in its coverage to date. The policy seems to be to regurgitate whatever gets whispered in their ear...

The WMN is entirely different, of course...