Page 6 of 6

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 21:21 21 Jun 2011
by Green Rhino
It was never the intention of either the GTs or the Trust ISC that this money would be repayable by staff.

It was a loan to the GTs but a donation by the GTs.

Any other interpretation is in error.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 13:13 22 Jun 2011
by dan_thomas
It isn't really any of my business any more, but there was a point in time when a fair percentage of the staff believed that they were being loaned money - for example, when the first donation of c£7k was passed in back in November, it was ring fenced as a hardship fund against which staff who were suffering could borrow money.

Eventually, a vote was taken and the money was equally divided amongst all those who were considered "full time" - I forget the qualifying criteria but I do know that the result of the vote was marginal and a significant number continued to believe that morally, the money should be returned to the Trust when things were happily resolved.

Clearly the situation has moved on, and if the staff were to receive a lump sum representative of 100% of monies owed during this sorry period, I have no doubt that many of them would want to repay the generous loans/gifts they have received, on the simple basis that not to do so would mean they ended up being paid more than they were contractually entitled to in the first place.

We all know that this is not going to happen, indeed I gather that they have been told as much by Mr Ridsdale.

Consequently the money will end up being used as a top-up to go some way to bridging the gap between those wages contractually owed and monies actually received under the Football Creditor agreement that we all so eagerly await.

Unless I misunderstand the manner in which the money has been raised, the staff will be effectively be receiving a gift from the Trust - via the GTs. Since the Football Club ultimately represents the Trust's beneficial interest and could not have continued to exist without the enormous sacrifices made by my former colleagues, it would seem entirely appropriate for the money to be written off.

It also sends out a powerful and tangible message of unity between all supporters groups, whether legally constituted or otherwise, and in my opinion should be wholeheatedly applauded.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 20:07 24 Jun 2011
by Gort
Whilst I understand that the easy and understandable reaction to this would be yes to write them off, I have some concerns

As the original loan of £2000 on 9th of march 2011 was for necessary team and club officials costs’ this cannot be written off under the society rules as the trust is unable to let the club have money for direct running expenses of the club, which this obviously is for even if it is through another organisation. If the ISC writes this off could a legal challenge be made against the ISC.

The second load of £5000 was originally for the staff hardship fund.
As now it looks unlikely that the PB will fulfil the full repayment of all Owings to the staff and that the staff wont be repaying the loans/hardship fund.

The PB could maintain that these ‘loans’ are actually part payment to the staff and include it when calculating any arrears owed.

This could then put the trust in the position where these loans could be interpreted as pay, and as a consequence the trust could be liable for PAYE, Employers National Insurances and employees national insurance contributions.

Because of this trust consultation, it can now not be argued by the ISC that these payments were loans if they are written off. They would be deemed as payment.

I also have some queries about the timing of this ‘consultation’!!!

Why all of a sudden the need to sort this out?
These ‘loans’ have been outstanding for some time, there is no time limit in sorting this out (maybe it’s the ISC trying to say look how good we are just before ISC elections)
There is no need to rush into a major decision like this! (Decision should be made by membership fully not by non elected ISC)
This could wait until after the elections so as the fully elected committee could deal with it!
At what ISC committee meeting was this discussed and decided as I understand that no committee meeting has been held for the past four weeks and the next was scheduled for Monday night.
I would like to see the minutes of the meeting that this was discussed at (as the trust want to be open and transparent in their dealing, much as they have asked for by the PB’s)

I would seriously urge the trust not to blindly write these ‘loans’ off, until the financial position of the club has stabilised and the elected trust committee is in place.

This money represents 70% of the trusts income for this year from membership, who knows in 1 years time if PR walks away, this money could be used to buy the club from the PB’s and put the club where it belongs in the hands of the supporters, the same supporters that the ISC are supposed to be supporting.

Look to long term solutions and not at short term gains.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 21:48 24 Jun 2011
by Charlie Wood
Gort adequately expresses my view above so I have voted no and so has my wife...because I told her to. Look to the future, any weakening of the Trust's financial position weakens the influence of the trust.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 23:26 24 Jun 2011
by dunlop
This could be seen as fund raising through the back door, is fund raising allowed in the Trust constitution.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 05:50 25 Jun 2011
by Leigh Rapson
As a member (!) i vote a wholehaerted yes.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 08:06 25 Jun 2011
by Green Rhino
dunlop wrote: This could be seen as fund raising through the back door, is fund raising allowed in the Trust constitution.


Yes.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 10:33 25 Jun 2011
by Green Rhino
This is a response to "GORT", whose post is on the previous page.

Many thanks for your post GORT; I respond to your points in turn.

Q - As the original loan of £2000... was for necessary team and club officials costs’ this cannot be written off under the society rules.... a legal challenge be made against the ISC.
A – As I said before - The Trust is not in existence to support the day to day running of the club, our Rules do not include for this. It is, however, able to ...“do anything else which is necessary or expedient to achieve its objectives.” (Powers No. 4n). These payments were not to contribute to the day to day operations of a functional club but were extraordinary ones required to help to ensure its survival, clearly something that is within our remit. There are no grounds for legal challenge against the ISC.

Q - The second load of £5000 was originally for the staff hardship fund.... The PB could maintain that these ‘loans’ ...could be interpreted as pay, and as a consequence the trust could be liable for PAYE, Employers National Insurances and employees national insurance contributions...
A – This has been covered on PASOTI previously. The staff members are not being paid by the GTs as the GTs is not their employer. Instead, our understanding is that the money was a gift as an appreciation for their efforts in the face of adversity. See http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM01460.htm

Q - I also have some queries about the timing of this ‘consultation’... This could wait until after the elections so as the fully elected committee could deal with it! At what ISC committee meeting was this discussed ...
A – Strange that you put inverted comas around the word consultation, as this is clearly what his is - and I am answering you as part of it. Anyway, the ISC has a mandate from the members of the Trust to run its business until the Society Board is in place, after the forthcoming elections. This decision was undertaken by a vote among ISC members. Many decisions of the ISC, big and small, have been taken outside meetings but through email correspondence – this has been found acceptable by all ISC members. The timing is propitious as it helps to foster unity among supporters groups, which is incredibly important now. It appears also to have gained widespread support across various strands of supporters and is leading to an increase in membership, which increases the legitimacy of the Trust, will increase the size of the electorate for the forthcoming elections and will increase our fundraising capabilities.

Q - I would seriously urge the trust not to blindly write these ‘loans’ off, until the financial position of the club has stabilised and the elected trust committee is in place.
A – Strange use of the word “blindly” - don’t feel that this requires a response.

Q - This money represents 70% of the trusts income for this year from membership... this money could be used to buy the club from the PB’s...
A – I pointed out previously that some major fundraising will be needed in the future – we all hope so. The Green Taverners have established themselves as the major fundraising element within the fanbase. Their involvement in future fundraising will be vital to the Trust in the future; as I said before, having the GTs in debt to the Trust when they are doing major fundraising for it would be rather ridiculous.

Q - Look to long term solutions and not at short term gains.
A – Again, a slightly befuddled observation. Anyway, over these last eight or so months we have been successful in building an organisation that can be sustainable. But it exists in the real world where short term matters of importance need to be attended to.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 10:48 25 Jun 2011
by Daz
:appl: :appl: :appl:

Well put.

Re: Trust proposes to write-off £7,000 Loan to GTs

Posted: 11:52 25 Jun 2011
by Ian Newell
Charlie Wood wrote: Gort adequately expresses my view above so I have voted no and so has my wife...because I told her to.


:lol: True democracy at work! Made I laugh.