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Re: General election - 8th June

Posted: 21:40 18 Jun 2017
by PL2 3DQ
Kentishgreen wrote: Call me silly but shouldn't there be a separate thread for the Grenfell Tower disaster?


The thread has been split now.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 11:07 23 Jun 2017
by Kentishgreen
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the following kind of conversation didn't emerge from the inquiry -

Builder " cladding A costs £1 million, cladding B costs £5 million"
Official " what's the difference "
Builder " about £ 4 million"
Official " great we'll go for cladding A" - I've just saved £4 million. I'll have some of that in my bonus pool. After all they're only social housing tenants, who cares.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 09:16 24 Jun 2017
by Brussels Bureaucrat
Kentishgreen wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if the following kind of conversation didn't emerge from the inquiry -

Builder " cladding A costs £1 million, cladding B costs £5 million"
Official " what's the difference "
Builder " about £ 4 million"
Official " great we'll go for cladding A" - I've just saved £4 million. I'll have some of that in my bonus pool. After all they're only social housing tenants, who cares.


Wasn't it discovered last week that a flame-retardant cladding would have been £5,000 more expensive for the entire tower? 80-odd deaths for the want of five grand. Unbelievable.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 09:42 24 Jun 2017
by Ade the green
Is there too much fixating on the cladding? Apparently before the refurbishment of the tower, the boxy rooms would have prevented the fire spreading so quick. The lack of sprinklers in the building must have had an effect and the fire was caused by a faulty freezer, all of which contributed to the worst disaster imaginable. To simply say it was cladding let's off the architecture of this calamity for so many things.

I understand that the cladding has apparently given of toxic fumes but with all structures, the faults are found at the costs of those living in/using them.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 13:12 25 Jun 2017
by andyr1963
The biggest problem with the cladding is that it was fitted on to battens and not directly on to the structure of the building, providing an air gap in behind the cladding, this air gap acted as a flue, a superfast oxygen provider for the flames. The speed of the fire spread is everything to do with the cladding.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 10:05 27 Jun 2017
by Pogleswoody
Interesting to hear on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday an interview of a representative of Portsmouth Council who was asked searching questions about the three tower blocks in Plymouth where the cladding had failed tests!! :facepalm:

As to cladding and 'air gaps' there should be fire breaks and fire resistant and intumescent fittings to separate the panels of cladding. Air gap provides insulation (like cavity wall) and reduces heat loss and interstitial condensation. Cladding is not just a visual improvement needs to 'improve' the structure.

As to 'missing' fire doors I note that everyone is pointing fingers ast the Councils. My experience is that flats are sold to private owners who often let them out. One of the common improvements is to buy a bog standard 'pretty' front door (nice bit of decorative glazing?) and fit that to the flat. Either another resident needs to complain or the Council should pick it up on a routine inspection. Even then they have to 'enforce' fitting of a new 1 hour fire door at owner's expense. Private owners removing fire doors on RTB flats? Sort of thing Thatcher crowed about!

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 13:57 27 Jun 2017
by Ade the green
One of the biggest issue of fire safety for me in any tower block is that no-one knows anyone else's habits etc.

Does one of the other tenants get blind drunk and smoke 20 cogarettes a day in bed etc.

The architecture of these flats had been changed from the boxier rooms to a more open plan area which helped the spread of fire.

One thing my brother told me the other day and I've not seen this reported is that the first fire service unit had they thought, extinguished the initial blaze and it was when they were packing up that another unit showed up and pointed out the fire still raging which had spread. If true than obviously the cladding helped the blaze move from one area of the tower block to another unseen by the first attendees so after that happened the fire service would have been chasing it's tail all night.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 20:17 27 Jun 2017
by Balham_Green
Pogleswoody wrote: Interesting to hear on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday an interview of a representative of Portsmouth Council who was asked searching questions about the three tower blocks in Plymouth where the cladding had failed tests!! :facepalm:

As to cladding and 'air gaps' there should be fire breaks and fire resistant and intumescent fittings to separate the panels of cladding. Air gap provides insulation (like cavity wall) and reduces heat loss and interstitial condensation. Cladding is not just a visual improvement needs to 'improve' the structure.

As to 'missing' fire doors I note that everyone is pointing fingers ast the Councils. My experience is that flats are sold to private owners who often let them out. One of the common improvements is to buy a bog standard 'pretty' front door (nice bit of decorative glazing?) and fit that to the flat. Either another resident needs to complain or the Council should pick it up on a routine inspection. Even then they have to 'enforce' fitting of a new 1 hour fire door at owner's expense. Private owners removing fire doors on RTB flats? Sort of thing Thatcher crowed about!



The fire doors are obviously the doors at the end of corridors/between floors etc. No getting away from blaming the council on this one, linked to deregulation, outsourcing and cutbacks in the public sector, all from the right wing neo liberalist agenda. A Council so keen on cutting Council Tax too.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 21:14 27 Jun 2017
by signalspast
Why oh Why is people trying to put one political side over the other on such a tragedy. Mcdonald calling it murder. Fire doors being removed a far right thing but here is a balance. the cladding was approved for building use in 1997 when labour was in power. The Camden flats that everybody has been evacuated from again were renovated when labour was in power and a labour London mayor. Its not a political thing but a disaster that was in the making of time.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 09:53 28 Jun 2017
by Pogleswoody
Balham_Green wrote:
Pogleswoody wrote: Interesting to hear on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday an interview of a representative of Portsmouth Council who was asked searching questions about the three tower blocks in Plymouth where the cladding had failed tests!! :facepalm:

As to cladding and 'air gaps' there should be fire breaks and fire resistant and intumescent fittings to separate the panels of cladding. Air gap provides insulation (like cavity wall) and reduces heat loss and interstitial condensation. Cladding is not just a visual improvement needs to 'improve' the structure.

As to 'missing' fire doors I note that everyone is pointing fingers ast the Councils. My experience is that flats are sold to private owners who often let them out. One of the common improvements is to buy a bog standard 'pretty' front door (nice bit of decorative glazing?) and fit that to the flat. Either another resident needs to complain or the Council should pick it up on a routine inspection. Even then they have to 'enforce' fitting of a new 1 hour fire door at owner's expense. Private owners removing fire doors on RTB flats? Sort of thing Thatcher crowed about!



The fire doors are obviously the doors at the end of corridors/between floors etc. No getting away from blaming the council on this one, linked to deregulation, outsourcing and cutbacks in the public sector, all from the right wing neo liberalist agenda. A Council so keen on cutting Council Tax too.


So they are 'obviously' the corridor fire doors that are missing? Even tho' the renovation was in the last couple of years? Where do you think they might have gone then? :think:
I was speaking from my personal experience of inspecting fire precautions in blocks and HMOs, your comment is from your personal experience? :think:

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 15:55 28 Jun 2017
by Balham_Green
Pogleswoody wrote:
Balham_Green wrote:
Pogleswoody wrote: Interesting to hear on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday an interview of a representative of Portsmouth Council who was asked searching questions about the three tower blocks in Plymouth where the cladding had failed tests!! :facepalm:

As to cladding and 'air gaps' there should be fire breaks and fire resistant and intumescent fittings to separate the panels of cladding. Air gap provides insulation (like cavity wall) and reduces heat loss and interstitial condensation. Cladding is not just a visual improvement needs to 'improve' the structure.

As to 'missing' fire doors I note that everyone is pointing fingers ast the Councils. My experience is that flats are sold to private owners who often let them out. One of the common improvements is to buy a bog standard 'pretty' front door (nice bit of decorative glazing?) and fit that to the flat. Either another resident needs to complain or the Council should pick it up on a routine inspection. Even then they have to 'enforce' fitting of a new 1 hour fire door at owner's expense. Private owners removing fire doors on RTB flats? Sort of thing Thatcher crowed about!



The fire doors are obviously the doors at the end of corridors/between floors etc. No getting away from blaming the council on this one, linked to deregulation, outsourcing and cutbacks in the public sector, all from the right wing neo liberalist agenda. A Council so keen on cutting Council Tax too.


So they are 'obviously' the corridor fire doors that are missing? Even tho' the renovation was in the last couple of years? Where do you think they might have gone then? :think:
I was speaking from my personal experience of inspecting fire precautions in blocks and HMOs, your comment is from your personal experience? :think:



Which 'renovation' was in last couple of years? Fire doors refer to external doors/breaks. Thought you would know that then.

Re: Grenfell fire disaster

Posted: 18:50 28 Jun 2017
by Pogleswoody
Balham_Green wrote:
Pogleswoody wrote:
Balham_Green wrote:
Pogleswoody wrote: Interesting to hear on 'Today' on Radio 4 yesterday an interview of a representative of Portsmouth Council who was asked searching questions about the three tower blocks in Plymouth where the cladding had failed tests!! :facepalm:

As to cladding and 'air gaps' there should be fire breaks and fire resistant and intumescent fittings to separate the panels of cladding. Air gap provides insulation (like cavity wall) and reduces heat loss and interstitial condensation. Cladding is not just a visual improvement needs to 'improve' the structure.

As to 'missing' fire doors I note that everyone is pointing fingers ast the Councils. My experience is that flats are sold to private owners who often let them out. One of the common improvements is to buy a bog standard 'pretty' front door (nice bit of decorative glazing?) and fit that to the flat. Either another resident needs to complain or the Council should pick it up on a routine inspection. Even then they have to 'enforce' fitting of a new 1 hour fire door at owner's expense. Private owners removing fire doors on RTB flats? Sort of thing Thatcher crowed about!



The fire doors are obviously the doors at the end of corridors/between floors etc. No getting away from blaming the council on this one, linked to deregulation, outsourcing and cutbacks in the public sector, all from the right wing neo liberalist agenda. A Council so keen on cutting Council Tax too.


So they are 'obviously' the corridor fire doors that are missing? Even tho' the renovation was in the last couple of years? Where do you think they might have gone then? :think:
I was speaking from my personal experience of inspecting fire precautions in blocks and HMOs, your comment is from your personal experience? :think:



Which 'renovation' was in last couple of years? Fire doors refer to external doors/breaks. Thought you would know that then.



The front doors to the flats should be 1 hourfire doors with intumescent strip to prevent spread of smoke and fire into the (only) stairwell. These are 'external' doors to the flats, what we call front doors. Leaseholders who live in their flats or rent them out often change them for doors that don't comply. See quote below:

Labour's Karen Buck, of Westminster North, asked Mr Javid if he has the legal powers to require leaseholders to install fire doors.
Mr Javid replied: "Is it often the case, not exclusively, that many leaseholders have removed fire doors and clearly that's not acceptable.
"I believe all legal powers are there and certainly one of the lessons from this tragedy, and certainly what we've seen in Camden so far, is to make sure we take a much greater interest in enforcement."