Amazing new find - Changes Argyle history

djg145":3e9o51tv said:

Extra games discovered in the early years - found by GoS

https://www.pafc.co.uk/news/2020/februa ... n-history/

Click to expand...

I always knew I was witnessing history when I saw Enoch Showunmi playing

Steve mentioned it back in the middle of January. What a find that was. Bitter sweet I'd say.

Knowing Steve as I do, he would have had to make all the changes in as short a time as possible. :greensmile:

He really is a star isn't he? :nworthy:

If you missed it, here's what I posted in GoS's What's New a few weeks ago:

Postponed and Abandoned Games

102 new dates have been added to the database for 84 postponed and 18 abandoned matches since 1945, the latest ones occurring this season of course. These show up in the Decades-Seasons-Matches choices on the Match pages, and also in the Opposition pages. Good examples are in 1985-86 and 2000-01, the seasons with the most postponed games (6 each). The dreadful winter of 1962-63 also had a big impact, especially for the away fixture at Cardiff, which was postponed and then abandoned before finally being played in May (best viewed in the Opposition page for Cardiff).

You can click on any of the postponed/abandoned dates for some basic details, but there's one important thing to remember. All completed first-team matches in GoS-DB contribute to milestones, totals, averages, earliest, latest, lowest, highest, etc, etc, for matches, players, oppositions, competitions, and everything else I've forgotten to list; whereas postponed and abandoned games do not.

As was mentioned on Pasoti a few weeks ago, GoS has always included one abandoned game - the League Cup replay with Aston Villa in December 1960 - and that's because it appears in all Argyle record books, and they wrongly include this game as a contributor to player appearances and other stats. Due to its origins, GoS has done the same, which of course is wrong, so now the abandoned Villa replay joins the other 101 'for information only' games, and as a result, GoS's milestones and counts for the match and the 11 players involved have been amended, reducing the overall totals by one for the likes of Johnny Williams and Wilf Carter.

If you know of any postponed or abandoned dates that I've missed, please get in touch.

Southern Charity Cup

I was interested to learn about this knock-out competition recently - introduced in 1901 for selected Southern League clubs - but then shuddered when I discovered that Argyle joined in when the competition was expanded to 16 clubs in 1909. [Very grateful thanks to Roger Walters, THE early Argyle expert, for pointing the way.] Unfortunately, none of the games are included in any of the Argyle record books, which is why GoS-DB has not included them - until now. 12 games from 1909-1915 have been added, together with as much detail as we can find, which fortunately includes Argyle's line-up for every one of them. So 12 new match records and 12 x 11 individual player records, plus the goals scored of course. For instance, most books (and GoS until now) say that goalkeeper Fred Craig is 4th on the all-time appearance list with 467 games. He remains 4th, but his total has risen to 472. One other consequence is a new Argyle player: J. Wright, a reserve team right-back, who was selected for one of those matches in 1913, so there's also a new player page for him.

Being so early in PAFC's history, the knock-on effect on match milestones is considerable: believe it or not, 650 milestones have been amended as a result. Two in particular are worth mentioning. We had said that the five players who made their Argyle debut on the opening day of the 2014-15 season shared the honour of being the club's 1000th first team player, but because of the new player in 1913, that honour now goes to Enoch Showunmi on 5 Apr 2014. Also, we thought that Argyle played their 5000th game in October 2015, at home to Exeter, but because of the combined effect of the Southern Charity Cup and the reallocation of the Villa replay, it was in fact against Portsmouth two months earlier (15 Aug 2015).

... which is all a bit embarrassing, but it also reflects what GoS-DB is: a complete record as far as we can discover, and that means that changes are always possible.

And that is why GOS is 'the Bible' for all things Argyle. Steve :nworthy: :nworthy:

This has come just in time. I am just completing the final read-through of my long overdue book covering the period from May 1959 to June 1962. This is what I wrote about this match - remember this game was played two days after our record ever defeat at Stoke (9-0) and immediately before the 4-6, 6-4 Charlton games and Wilf Carter's famous five.

Two days later, on Monday 19 December 1960, the shell-shocked Pilgrims had to face the mighty Villa, in what was to prove a history-making League Cup replay. Reg Wyatt replaced George Robertson, while Johnny Williams was moved forward to wear the number eight shirt to replace the injured McAnearney. John ‘Cardiff’ Williams came in for a rare appearance at right half. Despite the mauling at Stoke, Geoff Barnsley retained his place between the posts. I remember being at the ground that morning (Christmas holidays) and the scars from the first Villa match were still indelibly etched into the goalkeeper’s face. Normally full of smiles and always ready to chat, even as a 12 year old I could see that he just wanted to sign my book and hurry away.
That evening, 11,006 saw Argyle repair their pride, matching the powerful Villa blow for blow. In cloying mud and heavy rain both sides gave a remarkable exhibition of football. Despite the match ending goalless, it was an exciting evening. It is a night John ‘Cardiff’ Williams remembers well. “Gerry Hitchens came looking for me after the game. We had been at Cardiff together as lads but I was surprised he even remembered me. I felt it was good of him to take the trouble to seek me out. He was an England international by then, but it didn’t make no (sic) difference to him as a person.”
The draw gave referee Mr S Yates (Bristol) a real problem. The rules of the competition required any drawn replay to go to 30 minutes of extra time. Yates’ difficulty was that 90 minutes of football and the continuous rain had rendered the pitch unfit for another 30 minutes of play. There was standing water in places, with large areas where the ball would not roll. The official saw just one course of action, that being that he must declare the match to be abandoned. Villa felt that this second draw should mean a replay at a neutral ground. Unsurprisingly, Argyle backed the referee’s interpretation of the rules and wanted the game replayed at Home Park. Although it was an abandoned game, unusually the result remains in the majority of historical listings of football results from that period.
The decision was referred to the League Management Committee, after Football League secretary, Alan Hardaker was not prepared to give a telephone ruling on what was a unique set of circumstances. His problem was that the competition’s rules did not directly cover this eventuality. As Pilgrim pointed out in his Western Evening Herald report the next day, if the referee had abandoned the game after 89 minutes there would have been no debate at all. It seemed perfectly clear to him that the match was technically unfinished so would have to be replayed at Home Park. That was how the Management Committee saw it too. So the replay of a replay was re-scheduled for 6 February 1961, the third anniversary of Munich.


As much as anyone I have depended on GoS for accurate information. It is the stuff of dreams for any researcher and behind what the users see, Steve has supplied me with many spreadsheets of finite information impossible to find anywhere else. For that reason I will today copy this to enfa (The English National Football Archive), a subscription website that I place second only to GoS, and tell them that his match should be removed. I have checked this morning and they still have it. The clue was there all the time really, the fact that the "second" replay was played here. I shall also pass the news of the lost appearance to the surviving players from that night!

That retirement is going well, Steve! :lol: :crazy: :clap:

memory man":24ezxokn said:

This has come just in time. I am just completing the final read-through of my long overdue book covering the period from May 1959 to June 1962. This is what I wrote about this match - remember this game was played two days after our record ever defeat at Stoke (9-0) and immediately before the 4-6, 6-4 Charlton games and Wilf Carter's famous five.

Two days later, on Monday 19 December 1960, the shell-shocked Pilgrims had to face the mighty Villa, in what was to prove a history-making League Cup replay. Reg Wyatt replaced George Robertson, while Johnny Williams was moved forward to wear the number eight shirt to replace the injured McAnearney. John ‘Cardiff’ Williams came in for a rare appearance at right half. Despite the mauling at Stoke, Geoff Barnsley retained his place between the posts. I remember being at the ground that morning (Christmas holidays) and the scars from the first Villa match were still indelibly etched into the goalkeeper’s face. Normally full of smiles and always ready to chat, even as a 12 year old I could see that he just wanted to sign my book and hurry away.
That evening, 11,006 saw Argyle repair their pride, matching the powerful Villa blow for blow. In cloying mud and heavy rain both sides gave a remarkable exhibition of football. Despite the match ending goalless, it was an exciting evening. It is a night John ‘Cardiff’ Williams remembers well. “Gerry Hitchens came looking for me after the game. We had been at Cardiff together as lads but I was surprised he even remembered me. I felt it was good of him to take the trouble to seek me out. He was an England international by then, but it didn’t make no (sic) difference to him as a person.”
The draw gave referee Mr S Yates (Bristol) a real problem. The rules of the competition required any drawn replay to go to 30 minutes of extra time. Yates’ difficulty was that 90 minutes of football and the continuous rain had rendered the pitch unfit for another 30 minutes of play. There was standing water in places, with large areas where the ball would not roll. The official saw just one course of action, that being that he must declare the match to be abandoned. Villa felt that this second draw should mean a replay at a neutral ground. Unsurprisingly, Argyle backed the referee’s interpretation of the rules and wanted the game replayed at Home Park. Although it was an abandoned game, unusually the result remains in the majority of historical listings of football results from that period.
The decision was referred to the League Management Committee, after Football League secretary, Alan Hardaker was not prepared to give a telephone ruling on what was a unique set of circumstances. His problem was that the competition’s rules did not directly cover this eventuality. As Pilgrim pointed out in his Western Evening Herald report the next day, if the referee had abandoned the game after 89 minutes there would have been no debate at all. It seemed perfectly clear to him that the match was technically unfinished so would have to be replayed at Home Park. That was how the Management Committee saw it too. So the replay of a replay was re-scheduled for 6 February 1961, the third anniversary of Munich.


As much as anyone I have depended on GoS for accurate information. It is the stuff of dreams for any researcher and behind what the users see, Steve has supplied me with many spreadsheets of finite information impossible to find anywhere else. For that reason I will today copy this to enfa (The English National Football Archive), a subscription website that I place second only to GoS, and tell them that his match should be removed. I have checked this morning and they still have it. The clue was there all the time really, the fact that the "second" replay was played here. I shall also pass the news of the lost appearance to the surviving players from that night!

Click to expand...

This book better be worth watching for its giving the mousetrap a run for its money. :thumbup:

I have long admired the incredible work that Steve does with GOS but this is way above and beyond. Being a lazy so-and-so myself I know that if I had discovered 'the missing matches' and realised what a daunting recalibration ensued I would have probably whistled nonchalantly whilst 'sweeping the info back under the carpet'. :lol:

Hats off to you, Steve - you are a far better person than I am... :scarf:

dunlop":ixd4knji said:

memory man":ixd4knji said:

This has come just in time. I am just completing the final read-through of my long overdue book covering the period from May 1959 to June 1962. This is what I wrote about this match - remember this game was played two days after our record ever defeat at Stoke (9-0) and immediately before the 4-6, 6-4 Charlton games and Wilf Carter's famous five.

Two days later, on Monday 19 December 1960, the shell-shocked Pilgrims had to face the mighty Villa, in what was to prove a history-making League Cup replay. Reg Wyatt replaced George Robertson, while Johnny Williams was moved forward to wear the number eight shirt to replace the injured McAnearney. John ‘Cardiff’ Williams came in for a rare appearance at right half. Despite the mauling at Stoke, Geoff Barnsley retained his place between the posts. I remember being at the ground that morning (Christmas holidays) and the scars from the first Villa match were still indelibly etched into the goalkeeper’s face. Normally full of smiles and always ready to chat, even as a 12 year old I could see that he just wanted to sign my book and hurry away.
That evening, 11,006 saw Argyle repair their pride, matching the powerful Villa blow for blow. In cloying mud and heavy rain both sides gave a remarkable exhibition of football. Despite the match ending goalless, it was an exciting evening. It is a night John ‘Cardiff’ Williams remembers well. “Gerry Hitchens came looking for me after the game. We had been at Cardiff together as lads but I was surprised he even remembered me. I felt it was good of him to take the trouble to seek me out. He was an England international by then, but it didn’t make no (sic) difference to him as a person.”
The draw gave referee Mr S Yates (Bristol) a real problem. The rules of the competition required any drawn replay to go to 30 minutes of extra time. Yates’ difficulty was that 90 minutes of football and the continuous rain had rendered the pitch unfit for another 30 minutes of play. There was standing water in places, with large areas where the ball would not roll. The official saw just one course of action, that being that he must declare the match to be abandoned. Villa felt that this second draw should mean a replay at a neutral ground. Unsurprisingly, Argyle backed the referee’s interpretation of the rules and wanted the game replayed at Home Park. Although it was an abandoned game, unusually the result remains in the majority of historical listings of football results from that period.
The decision was referred to the League Management Committee, after Football League secretary, Alan Hardaker was not prepared to give a telephone ruling on what was a unique set of circumstances. His problem was that the competition’s rules did not directly cover this eventuality. As Pilgrim pointed out in his Western Evening Herald report the next day, if the referee had abandoned the game after 89 minutes there would have been no debate at all. It seemed perfectly clear to him that the match was technically unfinished so would have to be replayed at Home Park. That was how the Management Committee saw it too. So the replay of a replay was re-scheduled for 6 February 1961, the third anniversary of Munich.


As much as anyone I have depended on GoS for accurate information. It is the stuff of dreams for any researcher and behind what the users see, Steve has supplied me with many spreadsheets of finite information impossible to find anywhere else. For that reason I will today copy this to enfa (The English National Football Archive), a subscription website that I place second only to GoS, and tell them that his match should be removed. I have checked this morning and they still have it. The clue was there all the time really, the fact that the "second" replay was played here. I shall also pass the news of the lost appearance to the surviving players from that night!

Click to expand...

This book better be worth watching for its giving the mousetrap a run for its money. :thumbup:

Click to expand...

Its 9 or 10 years since I wrote most of it and I have to say I found this last read through quite interesting. I had forgotten some of the detail in what was such an exciting period at HP. Anyway money back guarantee for you if you dont enjoy it.

Looking forward to reading the book, Steve!

mercedes":dnbysemo said:

Looking forward to reading the book, Steve!

Click to expand...

And you get a mention - 28 April 1962