The annual "why are Argyle conceding so many headers" thread | PASOTI
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The annual "why are Argyle conceding so many headers" thread

Jul 19, 2018
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argyle.life
Got to be honest, the moment Lowe went for Josh Grant ahead of Will Aimson against Exeter, I was waiting for a set-piece goal as a result, and - to be fair - they didn't disappoint.

Nothing particularly unusual here - I could have probably dredged up an old thread from 2016/17, or if I've missed a thread that already talks about this I'm sure the mods will move this - this is the annual "why are Argyle conceding so many headers?" thread.

Per my counting (yes, I have gone back and looked at every single set-piece crossed into Argyle's box this season), our defenders (Wootton, Sawyer, Aimson, Canavan, Grant, Riley, McFadzean) have collectively lost two-thirds of all set-pieces crosses into the box. Yikes.

One of the big issues for me has been the refusal to start Canavan and Aimson together all season. Canavan is underrated in the air and (if you read the article) you'll see he's been Argyle's best this season at winning headers from opposition set-pieces. Aimson is the second-best aerially in my opinion (though there is a question over how easy that is to prove), so putting the two together should help, instead of only having one player

Meanwhile, it has been something of a minor miracle that Argyle are yet to concede a goal after Wootton's lost a header from a set-piece. (Genuinely, I counted six times that he lost one within the six-yard box - Colchester, Salford, Reading, Bristol Rovers, Carlisle and Leyton Orient - without the opposition team scoring.)

Plymouth Argyle’s bane: conceding from headers

Just under half of all the league goals conceded (8/20) have been directly related to losing headers, leading to eight points being dropped. Were Argyle to have taken just half of those points, they would be positioned seventh and within three points of the automatic promotion places.

But that doesn't fully demonstrate the scale of the problem, as that number could be considerably higher. Just a brief glance back across Argyle's campaign reveals another nine goals that could have been conceded.

 
Nov 2, 2004
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Forgetting the 3 centre backs, we are a tiny team. Not one of them is a good header of a ball, it often leads to our three central defenders trying to deal with 5 good attacking headers of a ball. Loads of teams in this division work tirelessly on set pieces and consequently have a superb delivery. Against us it is easy, Fadz, Grant, Riley etc are poor headers of a ball and not equipped
To deal with the opposing Centre backs. This then leads to our good headers Canavan etc trying to cover too many options which in turn leads to them not marking their own player properly.
Zone marking might help a bit.
 
Jul 19, 2018
211
6
London
argyle.life
ealinggreen":35vw2lgj said:
Forgetting the 3 centre backs, we are a tiny team. Not one of them is a good header of a ball, it often leads to our three central defenders trying to deal with 5 good attacking headers of a ball. Loads of teams in this division work tirelessly on set pieces and consequently have a superb delivery. Against us it is easy, Fadz, Grant, Riley etc are poor headers of a ball and not equipped
To deal with the opposing Centre backs. This then leads to our good headers Canavan etc trying to cover too many options which in turn leads to them not marking their own player properly.
Zone marking might help a bit.

Agreed. Of the strikers, only Taylor adds a physical presence defending set-pieces. Rudden, Moore, Grant, Telford and Clarke are hardly going to make much of a difference. Edwards and Sarcevic are okay, but the rest of our midfield don't really offer much in this regard. Soft-underbelly territory.
 
Sep 19, 2015
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Good topic of discussion this. I would also be interested to see how many of the those goals were scored during the second phase of a set piece. Newport and Northampton rings a bell where we have half heartily cleared our lines from set pieces, switched off and allowed players to have free headers/shots inside our box as a result. Couple this with the amount of late goals we have conceded through lack of concentration and I think that would certainly amount to one of our biggest issues. A natural leader and organizer in the centre of the three would certainly help to iron out the issues of players drifting into lala land.
 

The Doctor

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I've been watching Argyle since 1992 and I think that ALL of the teams that have gained promotion in that period have had a commanding centre-back (Mick Heathcote in Warnock's side, Graham Coughlan in Sturrock's side, Sonny Bradley in Adams's side). Sadly, none of the current centrebacks at the club have anything like the physical presence and aerial ability of those three players.
 
Jul 3, 2006
434
0
Interesting analysis

In the games I've seen, it feels like the 3-5-2 system makes it very easy for our opponents to attack on the wings, where they can find space behind the wing backs, and a numerical advantage if their full back comes forward.

Could the number of headers being conceded also relate to the number of crosses or fouls we're giving away in dangerous areas?
 
Jul 19, 2018
211
6
London
argyle.life
Agree that we need more vocal leadership in the back-three. Can never truly tell without getting a microphone on them, but I've always thought that a lack of leadership was one of Canavan's biggest weaknesses, especially given the need for organisation in defence.
 

davie nine

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Jan 23, 2015
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"In the last 70 years, most of our successful teams have had dominant centre halves whose aerial ability was crucial.
Starting with Jack Chisholm (1950's), we had Gordon Fincham (1960's), Mike Green (1970's), Gerry McElhinney (1980's), Mick Heathcote (1990's), Graham Coughlan and Krisztian Timar (2000's) and Sonny Bradley (2010's).
Argyle achieved a level of success with all of these centre halves/backs in our teams.
I believe that this provides sufficient evidence that this type of defender is what we, currently, need more than any other position in Ryan Lowe's team.
Hopefully, one of the players who have been contacting RL has these attributes and he can sign them at the earliest opportunity.
Obviously, a 20 goals a season striker would also be very useful."

I started a thread about 6 weeks ago with the above op. I am pleased that NickSS has now researched our current problems 'at the back' and, to a similar extent, 'up front' for set pieces.

I do believe that this has been the root cause of our defensive problems since Sonny Bradley moved on.
 
Jan 27, 2012
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It’s very simple- the current bunch of defenders aren’t good enough. They were responsible for relegation last season and it was obvious even in August 2018 that Adams had signed a bunch of duffers.
 

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davie nine":1geyu7yk said:
"In the last 70 years, most of our successful teams have had dominant centre halves whose aerial ability was crucial.
Starting with Jack Chisholm (1950's), we had Gordon Fincham (1960's), Mike Green (1970's), Gerry McElhinney (1980's), Mick Heathcote (1990's), Graham Coughlan and Krisztian Timar (2000's) and Sonny Bradley (2010's).
Argyle achieved a level of success with all of these centre halves/backs in our teams.
I believe that this provides sufficient evidence that this type of defender is what we, currently, need more than any other position in Ryan Lowe's team.
Hopefully, one of the players who have been contacting RL has these attributes and he can sign them at the earliest opportunity.
Obviously, a 20 goals a season striker would also be very useful."

I started a thread about 6 weeks ago with the above op. I am pleased that NickSS has now researched our current problems 'at the back' and, to a similar extent, 'up front' for set pieces.

I do believe that this has been the root cause of our defensive problems since Sonny Bradley moved on.

Not forgetting Lindsay Smith
 

JannerinCardiff

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ealinggreen":glui5efp said:
Forgetting the 3 centre backs, we are a tiny team. Not one of them is a good header of a ball, it often leads to our three central defenders trying to deal with 5 good attacking headers of a ball. Loads of teams in this division work tirelessly on set pieces and consequently have a superb delivery. Against us it is easy, Fadz, Grant, Riley etc are poor headers of a ball and not equipped
To deal with the opposing Centre backs. This then leads to our good headers Canavan etc trying to cover too many options which in turn leads to them not marking their own player properly.
Zone marking might help a bit.

Solution: Play Josh Grant at CDM instead of Edwards who can shift to RWB. Equals more genuine height in the team and a 4th player to deal with opposition on set pieces. Also Edwards is a more energetic RWB than Riley and offers more going forward. I reckon.
 

JannerinCardiff

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Jul 16, 2018
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I’ve not checked but it feels that most of the headers that have been scored against us have in the main been uncontested, so is the problem lack of height or lack of decent marking?
 
Sep 6, 2006
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JannerinCardiff":vrh1vdpe said:
ealinggreen":vrh1vdpe said:
Forgetting the 3 centre backs, we are a tiny team. Not one of them is a good header of a ball, it often leads to our three central defenders trying to deal with 5 good attacking headers of a ball. Loads of teams in this division work tirelessly on set pieces and consequently have a superb delivery. Against us it is easy, Fadz, Grant, Riley etc are poor headers of a ball and not equipped
To deal with the opposing Centre backs. This then leads to our good headers Canavan etc trying to cover too many options which in turn leads to them not marking their own player properly.
Zone marking might help a bit.

Solution: Play Josh Grant at CDM instead of Edwards who can shift to RWB. Equals more genuine height in the team and a 4th player to deal with opposition on set pieces. Also Edwards is a more energetic RWB than Riley and offers more going forward. I reckon.

Josh Grant is not cdm. Cant tackle cant win headers. There is no evidence he can make that role. Send back to chelski
 

Penlee

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JannerinCardiff":lm1u3axs said:
I’ve not checked but it feels that most of the headers that have been scored against us have in the main been uncontested, so is the problem lack of height or lack of decent marking?

This is a valid point - lack of concentration and basic marking often leads to avoidable goals. Off topic but the Bournemouth goal V man u is a case in point. If the defender just stands his ground (and stands behind the scorer) then the thing just fizzles out.

Lots of basic but excellent defensive play just goes unnoticed, understandably because nothing happens. Moves just fizzle out. The types of players that do that well go unnoticed too, regrettably