Who do we want as our new Manager (Rosenior says no)

[GreenEden]

I can't see past Duff he has experience has made his mistakes at Swansea and tbh seems to have done a decent job everywhere he's been bar 3 months in Swansea
Additionally seems to be reasonably placed geographicly.
He also has a playing career that young players could respect. I suspect he's a better fit to us then Swansea and is certainly a more appealing option than Foster was and dare I say it Barry offers

 

[Lousy Pint]

What is Argyle's actual policy with recruiting a manager?
Do we just choose who we prefer from the applicants, or do we actively approach suitable people who are probably already employed?
With the latter method, I'm thinking of someone like the Reading manager (Selles?) as an example. No idea if he would apply, if he is suitable for us, or if he was, would we chase him?

 

[ContinentalCol]

What is Argyle's actual policy with recruiting a manager?
Do we just choose who we prefer from the applicants, or do we actively approach suitable people who are probably already employed?
With the latter method, I'm thinking of someone like the Reading manager (Selles?) as an example. No idea if he would apply, if he is suitable for us, or if he was, would we chase him?

From the snippetts of interviews with the top brass talking about the new man, they all talk about a new Head Coach and never mention the word Manager.
So. do we assume they are going to carry on with a policy of being Data driven in picking a new Head Coach.
Interesting when you read between the lines of their possible though process.

 

[Graham Clark]

I get the sense that you might have an inside track on this anthony barry talk ? Is that right ?

Is the common denominator between ian foster and anthony barry that they worked with paul cook ? And would that explain why paul cook was interviewed ( which was disclosed by paul cook himself)?

We have had several 'L' plater' managers in the championship- peter shilton, david kemp, ian foster...none particularly successful, so I'm not sure in what way Barry's appointment would be data- driven, in any sense ( although I think david Kemp would have succeeded in fielding a very competitive side- if he was given the budget which shilton had)...

In regard to barry's press quotes words are one thing but actions are really what counts ( 'fine words dont butter any parsnips')- and experience is what counts,even more, in my view

Its simon Hallett's club and it's his money that hes using to fund it....and that definitely gives him the right to choose who he likes

That doesnt mean that I would be happy to see another 'L plate' manager in charge - no matter how stellar his coaching career- because that doesnt translate into being a successful manager, as brian kidd found out

Tried and tested is best in my view- in the mould of ian Holloway and tony pulis.Perhaps even the return of Shuey might end up being an option, if he ends up getting the chop ?( who I'm sure will be a much better manager now as a result of his experiences at stoke )....

My last words on the subject until after an appointment.

As far as Schuey is concerned he was a great success as a 'learner'. However, it was clear with his interest in the Swansea and Sunderland jobs and then ultimately Stoke he felt his 'stock was high' and the time was right to go. With a war chest of £4m in the January window he has now abandoned his football principles at Stoke in the scrap for Championship survival. Like others I worshipped his time and achievements with us but all trust and relationships are now fractured beyond repair.

As for Barry he is at a crossroads. He now wants to manage rather than coach and has in the past turned down Fleetwood and QPR. He will be available - he will have many offers I am sure. As for being a 'learner' I am struggling with that concept given his 155 games as assitant manager at Wigan including winning the First Division and staying in the Championship. Then you add his three seasons at Chelsea including a short period as manager in a season where they ended up winning the Champions League. Then Tuchel was so impressed he paid 1m Euros to get him to Munich. That is without being acknowledged as being one of the best set piece specialists around (and boy do we need that!). How many points would we gain with set piece improvements.

I understand some will prefer managers with 30 games or so experience in League One which qualifies them as a non-learner or alternatively you go for significant experience with someone like Paul Cook (but don't mention his Ipswich experience). The truth is that there are not many obvious stand out candidates at the moment - those who have managerial experience either have too little (one season?) or have proved failures at other clubs often with money at their disposal.

We should learn from the Foster period. It emphasised how important 'togetherness' is at all levels of the club. Foster fundamentally failed to embrace the fans (his own decision by all accounts) but was also unpopular with staff at the club. After the way Derek Adams, Ryan Lowe and then Schuey conducted themselves within the club and embraced the fans base the ability to do that would be close to top of my essential requirements to demonstrate at interview. It is our DNA. Having read alot about Barry on hearing he was seen in Plymouth on the eve of the interviews to be honest I was more impressed with his character than his achievements. I don't know whether he was actually interviewed but I certainly would this time round. Whether he can adequately demonstrate the above essential criteria or not I have no idea other than instinct. Someone needs to and hopefully they will be a successful appointment embraced by all.

 

[GreenTommy]

Not sure if its been mentioned by Will Still has opted to leave Reims at the end of the season and is looking for a ambitious championship club. He has already turned down Sunderland due to the way they run things. Looks like the type of manager who would suit us.

 

[Railway sleeper]

THanks for your reply graham.

Not sure how valid a point it is to say that Shuey was / is a learner. And I dont think I'd accept that point, respectfully.

I always think that course ( in this sense that would be previous experience at the club) and distance ( previous experience of managing in the championship) horses are the the ones to back.in horseracing of course, that's a proven algorithm.

Of course we wouldn't have many choices if we were looking at 'course' horses, so dont think that should apply- but 'distance' ( previous experience of managing in the championship) should definitely apply, in my opinion.

Shuey knew the club well at the time of his appointment- so you cant really compare him to an external candidate who doesnt have an understanding of the club- like Foster.

Also at the time of our promotion Shuey already had experience, as he was the one who got us promoted out of league 1.

Also there was little risk with shuey as he was appointed in a lower league and at the time was merely continuing with ryan Lowe's tactics ( which of course he adapted over time)- and he knew these tactics inside out having also worked with lowe at bury.

To me it's like were apologising for being one of the ' big fish' in European football- which we are- by definition, being a championship club ( albeit in a small way). Idont think this is an exaggeration if you look at the standing in which the championship is held, in relation to European leagues.


So why are we accepting or proposing to accept an 'L' plate manager- again, after foster ?? Is it because neil dewsnip wants to find somebody who he can work with and who doesnt have a big ego ? If this is the case- then is this a proper criteria against which an appointment should be judged ??

If our organisational structure is preventing us from appointing an experienced manager with a proven track record- then surely the solution is to change our organisational structure ??

You say there is no stand out candidate- but again I would have to disagree. Michael duff is the obvious candidate , and if he had been appointed instead of foster, I think we would already have been safe ( unverifiable I know, but that's my ooinion).

Duff is the ' play it again sam' candidate. We would only be asking him to do at Argyle ( in the champoinship) what hed already achieved at cheltenham ( in league 1). The sizecomparison of cheltenham to clubs in league 1, broadly correlates o Argyle in the championship in my view....

 

[ContinentalCol]

From Wiki,
The EFL Championship is the second most-watched second-tier domestic sports league in the World, behind the German 2. Bundesliga (22,224), with an average of 18,787 spectators per game in the 2022–23 season. The Championship is the fifth most watched league in Europe.

We should be attracting some of the best Coaches who are looking for their next step to be in The Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga or Serie A.

We must not sell ourselves short and Uncle Simon and The Board need to be not shy in paying for someone.
We have an awful reputation for doing everything on the cheap.
An outstanding Coach may well take our group of players and turn them in to established excellent Championship players, while bringing on the best of our youth through to the first team.

 

[jimsing]

From Wiki,
The EFL Championship is the second most-watched second-tier domestic sports league in the World, behind the German 2. Bundesliga (22,224), with an average of 18,787 spectators per game in the 2022–23 season. The Championship is the fifth most watched league in Europe.

We should be attracting some of the best Coaches who are looking for their next step to be in The Premier League, Bundesliga, La Liga or Serie A.

We must not sell ourselves short and Uncle simon and The Board need to be not shy in paying for someone.
We have an awful reputation for doing everything on the cheap.
An outstanding Coach may well take our group of players and turn them in to established excellnt Championship players, while bringing on the best of our youth through to the first team.

We have to do things on the cheap, or our budget would suffer even more!

 

[Andy B.]

Lillian Nalis - go get him Simon.

 

[Graham Clark]

THanks for your reply graham.

Not sure how valid a point it is to say that Shuey was / is a learner. And I dont think I'd accept that point, respectfully.

I always think that course ( in this sense that would be previous experience at the club) and distance ( previous experience of managing in the championship) horses are the the ones to back.in horseracing of course, that's a proven algorithm.

Of course we wouldn't have many choices if we were looking at 'course' horses, so dont think that should apply- but 'distance' ( previous experience of managing in the championship) should definitely apply, in my opinion.

Shuey knew the club well at the time of his appointment- so you cant really compare him to an external candidate who doesnt have an understanding of the club- like Foster.

Also at the time of our promotion Shuey already had experience, as he was the one who got us promoted out of league 1.

Also there was little risk with shuey as he was appointed in a lower league and at the time was merely continuing with ryan Lowe's tactics ( which of course he adapted over time)- and he knew these tactics inside out having also worked with lowe at bury.

To me it's like were apologising for being one of the ' big fish' in European football- which we are- by definition, being a championship club ( albeit in a small way). Idont think this is an exaggeration if you look at the standing in which the championship is held, in relation to European leagues.


So why are we accepting or proposing to accept an 'L' plate manager- again, after foster ?? Is it because neil dewsnip wants to find somebody who he can work with and who doesnt have a big ego ? If this is the case- then is this a proper criteria against which an appointment should be judged ??

If our organisational structure is preventing us from appointing an experienced manager with a proven track record- then surely the solution is to change our organisational structure ??

You say there is no stand out candidate- but again I would have to disagree. Michael duff is the obvious candidate , and if he had been appointed instead of foster, I think we would already have been safe ( unverifiable I know, but that's my ooinion).

Duff is the ' play it again sam' candidate. We would only be asking him to do at Argyle ( in the champoinship) what hed already achieved at cheltenham ( in league 1). The sizecomparison of cheltenham to clubs in league 1, broadly correlates o Argyle in the championship in my view....

I respect yiour view on Duff but I don't share it, if you read the BBC link below (apologies for repeating it but it is so damning) - Michael Duff's tenure followed exactly the same pattern at Swansea like Foster's at Argyle by alienating fans and players alike and disrupting the well earned identity of the club , except of course he had proven extensive managerial experience. I always felt Luke Williams would have been a good appointment for us at the time and so it has proved given how he has now got Swansea playing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67626321#:~:text=In%20the%20end%2C%20it%20was,six%20months%20into%20the%20job.

Now I just look forward to hearing when the interviews will be and will no doubt hear of candidates checking into their hotel! Just got to secure our Championship status first.

 

[argylecowboy]

Anyone fancy Selles, the Reading manager? He's done OK at Reading with what he has had to face there and has extensive coaching experience at 40 years old, having been coaching since he was 16. Spanish managers often do well in the English game. It could open up more transfer options, especially from the Iberian Peninsula and maybe he could persuade the Azeez lad to come with him if Morgan departs. Just throwing another name in the hat.

Yes I am with you on this one

 

[Biggs]

THanks for your reply graham.

Not sure how valid a point it is to say that Shuey was / is a learner. And I dont think I'd accept that point, respectfully.

I always think that course ( in this sense that would be previous experience at the club) and distance ( previous experience of managing in the championship) horses are the the ones to back.in horseracing of course, that's a proven algorithm.

Of course we wouldn't have many choices if we were looking at 'course' horses, so dont think that should apply- but 'distance' ( previous experience of managing in the championship) should definitely apply, in my opinion.

Shuey knew the club well at the time of his appointment- so you cant really compare him to an external candidate who doesnt have an understanding of the club- like Foster.

Also at the time of our promotion Shuey already had experience, as he was the one who got us promoted out of league 1.

Also there was little risk with shuey as he was appointed in a lower league and at the time was merely continuing with ryan Lowe's tactics ( which of course he adapted over time)- and he knew these tactics inside out having also worked with lowe at bury.

To me it's like were apologising for being one of the ' big fish' in European football- which we are- by definition, being a championship club ( albeit in a small way). Idont think this is an exaggeration if you look at the standing in which the championship is held, in relation to European leagues.


So why are we accepting or proposing to accept an 'L' plate manager- again, after foster ?? Is it because neil dewsnip wants to find somebody who he can work with and who doesnt have a big ego ? If this is the case- then is this a proper criteria against which an appointment should be judged ??

If our organisational structure is preventing us from appointing an experienced manager with a proven track record- then surely the solution is to change our organisational structure ??

You say there is no stand out candidate- but again I would have to disagree. Michael duff is the obvious candidate , and if he had been appointed instead of foster, I think we would already have been safe ( unverifiable I know, but that's my ooinion).

Duff is the ' play it again sam' candidate. We would only be asking him to do at Argyle ( in the champoinship) what hed already achieved at cheltenham ( in league 1). The sizecomparison of cheltenham to clubs in league 1, broadly correlates o Argyle in the championship in my view....

I think that Ian Foster didn't work out because he was Ian Foster and not the right fit, rather than because he was learning. Though it does seem madness in hindsight that we were hiring someone with so little experience in senior club football... not an issue with Barry.

With our budget we should be doing the same with managers as we do with players, which is getting in people who maybe aren't the finished article yet (which is why we can afford them) but have an incredibly high ceiling. From everything I've seen, Anthony Barry has a way higher ceiling than Michael Duff.

 

[Railway sleeper]

I respect yiour view on Duff but I don't share it, if you read the BBC link below (apologies for repeating it but it is so damning) - Michael Duff's tenure followed exactly the same pattern at Swansea like Foster's at Argyle by alienating fans and players alike and disrupting the well earned identity of the club , except of course he had proven extensive managerial experience. I always felt Luke Williams would have been a good appointment for us at the time and so it has proved given how he has now got Swansea playing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67626321#:~:text=In%20the%20end%2C%20it%20was,six%20months%20into%20the%20job.

Now I just look forward to hearing when the interviews will be and will no doubt hear of candidates checking into their hotel! Just got to secure our Championship status first.

Thanks for your reply graham

Will agree to disagree over michael duff

For my money : cheltenham and barnsley > swansea

And as I've said before I look on some form of failure as a positive- it terms of it being a learning experience

What I look for is a record of success- and you get that with michael duff .If you look for a manager with an unblemished record, you might have a rather long search.... ( to no ultimate avail)

And of course - any managerial record easily trumps no record at all ( foster, barry)....

 

[Timeout]

I liked the idea of will still back in January but never thought he was attainable. Strange what a few months make, no idea if he is actually attainable but it does feel like it could be possible??? And if so I would certainly like him shortlisted along with Antony Barry. the Lincoln manager and reading manager seem interesting too.....

 

[Biggs]

Thanks for your reply graham

Will agree to disagree over michael duff

For my money : cheltenham and barnsley > swansea

And as I've said before I look on some form of failure as a positive- it terms of it being a learning experience

What I look for is a record of success- and you get that with michael duff .If you look for a manager with an unblemished record, you might have a rather long search.... ( to no ultimate avail)

And of course - any managerial record easily trumps no record at all ( foster, barry)....

Except it's not just failure we're wary of, that BBC article makes it very clear he wouldn't be the right fit for us. If he'd failed because he did things in an Argyle-y way at a club that didn't work that way, then it's a different story.

And re the last sentence, I'd rather have a coach that 'could' be a 9/10 over one we know is probably a 6/10.