Let's be realistic

[Metal Green Mickey]

Oh my, I beg to differ hugely.

Was that supposed to be realism Mickey?, reads like utopianism to me.

That reads less like pragmatism and more like you want both your cake and to eat it. Sure we'd all like fantastic free flowing football but realism, pragmatism dictates that results win over style every which way you look at it.

I love free flowing attacking football, as a neutral Man City are a pure joy to watch right now. But that ain't gonna happen for us with this squad, either with Adams or nay. We're in a relegation battle now and no manager is going to come in and radically reset the ethos. His football was the epitome of binary but the last time we started a season so poorly the Pulis way saved our season, if it's gonna happen again it'll be by the same method.

Your post does not in any way shape or form suggest even a hint of realism. A realist would accept the poo position we find ourselves in and deal with it. He'd pragmatically forsake utopian dreams and live with both the reality and the method required to remedy it.

Have you been to the last two seasons of home games under DA? I mean each and every one?

You say l'm not being realistic. I'm describing what l see on the pitch at HP every other Saturday.

I wasn't even talking about free flowing football. I'm just talking about functional football. E.g. Doing the basics which we can't even get right.

You mentioned Tony Pulis. Yes his brand of football down here was dire. Yet there is one massive difference between his style and Adams. Argyle didn't look like conceding. They actually stopped crosses into the box and shots on goal. Under Adams we never look like keeping a clean sheet and yet still play negative tactics.

I'm afraid you have entrenched yourself in a view that actually devours itself of realism. The sh!t postion as you say is because of his tactics and management. Something you neglect to accept.

If you honestly think Argyle won't get relegated under Adams this season then so be it. Have no idea where the goals are coming from and as we don't keep clean sheets that 2 goals needed to win each game on most occasions. So you tell me how we are going to get out of this mess realistically without goal scoring strikers or midfielders? How we are going to get out of this mess with a team that creaks defensively every time the opposition go forward.

Understand your loyalty to the manager but at some point you will realise how bad the situation is because of his negative style and tactics.

 

[Guiri Green]

Ok, lets be realistic.

Let's take the results out of the debate for a min.

The football is atrocious. I have no problem with "functional" football. Sometimes passing football can be boring as Fletchers team proved. We went sideways and backways. However, just like his team, we don't play penetrating football which breaks a teams defensive back line by either pace, skill and great technique on crosses.

Adams works them hard on double training sessions and yet l often wonder why. We don't see an improvement in the way the players pass, cross or shoot the ball. We are meant to be a fit team and yet we end up retreating to the half way line in games, standing off the opposition without comitting to a tackle.

How many times have we witnessed the opposition get to the edge of our box, with no pressure on them, and able to get cross after cross into the box? Or shoot, just like Saturday on the edge of the box with nobody closing that player down. Adams talks about these things like it just happened in games and yet it happened last season and continues to do so this season.

In fact, let's be realistic. When is Adams not talking BS in his post match interviews. Often saying we deserved to win the game when for the majority of the game we can't even remember a shot on target whilst the opposition has been all over us.

Without magic goals from Carey we simply don't look like scoring. That's being realistic. That's why we are going down. If you don't score you can't win games. Let's look at the last two games. Shrewsbury were there for the taking. When we did go forward they looked shaky at the back. However, Adams decided the best form of attack is to defend. So suddenly Shrewsbury weakness at the back wasn't exploited. Just our own. Yet Adams comes out at the end of the game with how we attacked them. He is delusional at times.

Then last night. A great point but again we got battered. If we keep playing a defensive game eventually the team that attacks you will score. A great block by ATS but imagine if that went in. Suddenly, in the cold light of day people will be once again frustrated by his negative tactics. Carey's two wonder goals have masked a massive problem. We still don't look like scoring goals. You can't win games if you don't attack teams. We are always worrying about what the opposition do. Not how we are going to hurt teams.

Adams negative brand of football is just garbage to watch. He may get us out of this mess but there is more to football than just winning. Not expecting to play well every week but l do expect my team to "have a go". There are times we have lost before we have even got going simply because of our playing style.

We rarely win in style. A lot of Adams wins last year were narrow 2-1 games in which we were hanging on for dear life for the 3pts when the opposition had exposed our frailties and somehow managed not convert their dominance.

So l think l am realistic. Because l've been watching this dross for 15-18 months (from the last few months of Adams first season).

I have said give him time for two reasons.

1. Whoever comes in now can't bring in his own players

2. He got us promotion and even though l think we were very fortunate, at the end of the day he still got us up. So he deserves time to turn around the results.

However, let's be honest and realistic. He may turn around the results. Yet what he won't be doing is making us play a more positive, attacking brand of football. If we get out of this mess it will be by dour, dire negative football where we are hanging on for narrow victories. It may be the football some people want to see, but it's not for me. We can't win every week so l at least want to see my football team have a go. At the moment all l see is us giving up possession game after game whilst we wait for the opposition to score even though we have put 11 men behind the ball. Our ability to somehow not press a team when they are in our own half is one of many reasons why l find Adams tactics baffling at best. I mean how can you get the ball back if you don't press? You are relying on the opposition to make a mistake.

Like l said many times, just watch his brand of football. If you still believe in Adams then your watching a totally different game from me.

As lengthy and articulate as usual. However, at the moment I would say that there is no more to football than winning. A bit more of it and we might be able to start the easy on the eye stuff that we're craving.

You say the football is garbage (a widely held view) but then want to allow him more time ? We had all of last Season winning games unsatisfactorilly in some opinions, so we should be aware by now that as far as DA is concerned 'it ain't broke'.

The realistic view is DA is here to stay, the style won't get any more pleasing to the eye, it hopefully might become more effective and we start to win games in pretty much the same way as did to get promotion from L2.

 

[Pettgreen]

Now THAT'S realistic pragmatism Mickey ☝️

Now, now X'y old boy. Some may suggest you're :stir: the pot a bit!

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

Ok, lets be realistic.

Let's take the results out of the debate for a min.

The football is atrocious. I have no problem with "functional" football. Sometimes passing football can be boring as Fletchers team proved. We went sideways and backways. However, just like his team, we don't play penetrating football which breaks a teams defensive back line by either pace, skill and great technique on crosses.

Adams works them hard on double training sessions and yet l often wonder why. We don't see an improvement in the way the players pass, cross or shoot the ball. We are meant to be a fit team and yet we end up retreating to the half way line in games, standing off the opposition without comitting to a tackle.

How many times have we witnessed the opposition get to the edge of our box, with no pressure on them, and able to get cross after cross into the box? Or shoot, just like Saturday on the edge of the box with nobody closing that player down. Adams talks about these things like it just happened in games and yet it happened last season and continues to do so this season.

In fact, let's be realistic. When is Adams not talking BS in his post match interviews. Often saying we deserved to win the game when for the majority of the game we can't even remember a shot on target whilst the opposition has been all over us.

Without magic goals from Carey we simply don't look like scoring. That's being realistic. That's why we are going down. If you don't score you can't win games. Let's look at the last two games. Shrewsbury were there for the taking. When we did go forward they looked shaky at the back. However, Adams decided the best form of attack is to defend. So suddenly Shrewsbury weakness at the back wasn't exploited. Just our own. Yet Adams comes out at the end of the game with how we attacked them. He is delusional at times.

Then last night. A great point but again we got battered. If we keep playing a defensive game eventually the team that attacks you will score. A great block by ATS but imagine if that went in. Suddenly, in the cold light of day people will be once again frustrated by his negative tactics. Carey's two wonder goals have masked a massive problem. We still don't look like scoring goals. You can't win games if you don't attack teams. We are always worrying about what the opposition do. Not how we are going to hurt teams.

Adams negative brand of football is just garbage to watch. He may get us out of this mess but there is more to football than just winning. Not expecting to play well every week but l do expect my team to "have a go". There are times we have lost before we have even got going simply because of our playing style.

We rarely win in style. A lot of Adams wins last year were narrow 2-1 games in which we were hanging on for dear life for the 3pts when the opposition had exposed our frailties and somehow managed not convert their dominance.

So l think l am realistic. Because l've been watching this dross for 15-18 months (from the last few months of Adams first season).

I have said give him time for two reasons.

1. Whoever comes in now can't bring in his own players

2. He got us promotion and even though l think we were very fortunate, at the end of the day he still got us up. So he deserves time to turn around the results.

However, let's be honest and realistic. He may turn around the results. Yet what he won't be doing is making us play a more positive, attacking brand of football. If we get out of this mess it will be by dour, dire negative football where we are hanging on for narrow victories. It may be the football some people want to see, but it's not for me. We can't win every week so l at least want to see my football team have a go. At the moment all l see is us giving up possession game after game whilst we wait for the opposition to score even though we have put 11 men behind the ball. Our ability to somehow not press a team when they are in our own half is one of many reasons why l find Adams tactics baffling at best. I mean how can you get the ball back if you don't press? You are relying on the opposition to make a mistake.

Like l said many times, just watch his brand of football. If you still believe in Adams then your watching a totally different game from me.

As lengthy and articulate as usual. However, at the moment I would say that there is no more to football than winning. A bit more of it and we might be able to start the easy on the eye stuff that we're craving.

You say the football is garbage (a widely held view) but then want to allow him more time ? We had all of last Season winning games unsatisfactorilly in some opinions, so we should be aware by now that as far as DA is concerned 'it ain't broke'.

The realistic view is DA is here to stay, the style won't get any more pleasing to the eye, it hopefully might become more effective and we start to win games in pretty much the same way as did to get promotion from L2.

I personally don't think he will turn it around.

However, as he got this team promotion he deserves the time to see if he can turn it around.

Just because l believe he isn't good enough, doesn't mean l wont be fair about his predicament when voicing an opinion. It's a werid view to probably have but that's why l think l'd like to think lm a reasonable fan.

 

[Larry David]

What's realistic is the fact we have won one game of football from a possible seventeen so far this season.

As I say hopefully a win on Saturday will be a sign were getting to grips with League One.

To date though our defensive cautious approach has hardly been a resounding success has it? and if the past couple of games don't signal an upturn in results then to continue plodding on in the same vein with a lone striker unsuited to the role conceding soft goals and a reluctance to press the opposition when in possession I might start to think we could end up being relegated.

 

[X Isle]

I'll pass on the rhetorical question Mickey, you know the answer full well.

Furthermore I have no loyalty to the manager, just Argyle. Managers, like players and chairmen, are transitory beings, some stay longer than others but they all pass through.I didn't want him, have struggled to warm to him and have no greater love of the tactics you describe than you do.

It is not what we ideally want that we should aspire to in this situation, it is what we need that matters. With the assembled squad we have and the absence of a game changing war chest for January Derek Adams is the best hope of salvaging the season, and with Derek Adams comes Derek Adams tactics.

There are signs of a spark from our engine and of fundamental importance to getting that engine running is the support of the players. Conspicuously they are showing that.

We all want utopia, but it ain't coming any time soon. Realism should therefore guide our thoughts not dreams. Keeping calm and carrying on is all that we've got right now, so that's what we've got to do, like it or lump it.

...and for the record I am in the Mickey Heathcote camp there, lumping it :wink:

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

See l don't buy into the fact these players can't play better than what they are currently.

Good positive coaching, training and tactics would benefit the team as a whole.

The problem with Derek Adams tactics is that you are watching Argyle against the opposition hoping in each game they miss the chances that our playing style allows them to have.

If you mostly defend as a team whilst the opposition attack then in most outcomes there is surely only one winner? I'm still not sure how these tactics worked last season but they somehow did. This season though against better opposition, who are more clinical, they just don't work. If you keep sitting back then eventually you will be punished unless you have an excellent back 5 (including the keeper). That's why last night Bradley has had mixed reviews. He probably played excellently for the majority of the game but because we were mostly always under the cosh one lapse of concentration can prove vital. If your actually attacking as a unit then less time defending means less chance of a mistake to happen.

It's the whole negative footballing philosophy of his that is really destructive to this Argyle team. He will probably feel he is being pragmatic but if this was true why are we struggling to get results or even play half decent football.

Sturrock mark 1 brand of football was direct. It was defensive at times too. Yet at least we created chances and had players in the side who could get forward in support of Evans. Friio being a prime example. I don't care about lumping it football, as long as there is some attacking purpose behind it.

You say there are signs of sparking.....where....two Carey wonder strikes still masks over our lack of goal scoring abilities whilst the defence concedes at least a goal a game. Both ends we have serious issues.

I don't want utopia. I just want an Argyle team who stop worrying about the opposition first. Who are on the front foot. Who can pass and cross a football. And who get close enough to goal to shoot and make an opposition goalie at home park make a save instead of him having a deckchair out in his goalmouth enjoying the sun.

I think that isn't too much to ask.

 

[ming the merciless]

Again MGM spot on. Thats exactly how I feel.

Strangely I agree with a lot of what X isle says but I have a massive sticking point I cannot see beyond. I do not enjoy watching Plymouth Argyle play football. Every time I go I wish I hadn't because it doesn't do anything at all to satisfy my need for a football fix.

 

[phil thefluter24]

Just hope these Cary "wonder Strikes" are not allowed to mask the real problems that still exist. We wont avoid relegation on the strength of this, still lets see what happens on Saturday

 

[Frazer Lloyd-Davies]

Let's be realistic...

Torquay were relegated from League One with 51 points about 10 years ago. This is the largest points tally from a relegated team in that time. Therefore, for Argyle to guarantee League One football next season it is safe to assume that 52 points will do the trick.

To get 52 points we need another 45 points in the 32 remaining games. That's 1.4 points every game. Despite two impressive results in the last week, we are averaging 0.5 points per game this season, almost one entire point per match lower than what we require to hit 52.

The Torquay relegation was the worst case scenario. The average over the last ten years is closer to 47/48. To hit 47 points we need another 40 points in the same 32 remaining fixtures. This is the equivalent of 1.25 points per game or 0.75 more than our current return.

If we are to be realistic, it must be said that if things don't change fairly noticeably, and at a fairly quick pace, then relegation could be inevitable. It is becoming that black and white.

Adams will have bought himself some time this week, and arguably rightly so, but another draw or even worse a loss this weekend and those two results almost count for nothing.

 

[newquaygreen]

Exeter has proven that loyalty to the manager does work

 

[Mark Jenkin]

Can't be bothered to read all this thread, but I'll be realistic.
The football is woeful, it was woeful last year but we won so we put up with my it, this year we have 7 points from 14 games and it's boring to watch.
And to be really realistic, if it wasn't for 2 Carey worldies in the last 2 games we would have lost those as well, and the fact Blackburn's finishing was atrocious (25 shots on goal)
Whether the blame lies with Adams, the budget, or both, the 'reality' is the crowds will not keep on turning up to watch this borefest!

 

[Balham Green]

In the social media world of instant reaction, things are either absolutely fantastic or absolutely dire.
The message boards of teams in mid table mediocrity must be ever so dull as what have the fans got to get over excited about!

We have some folk who could find excited enthusiastic delirium and others who could find vitriolic unconstructive negativity in watching paint dry, it'd never be dull :lol:

Both extremes of mood though are equally odd and equally knee jerk. The middle path is the path to follow and I tend to seek out and value higher those posters who rarely stray from it.

I'm glad the virus of modern 24/7 social media hasn't infected everyone. While the 'flighty' sorts might be entertaining they invariably lack focus, or in some cases lack an actual grip on reality. Short term events don't matter as much as long term direction, the little picture isn't as important as the big one. So both 'going off on one' or being 'orgasmically excited' is just silly.

We're not nearly as good as most think we are when things are going well and we're not nearly as bad as most think we are when things aren't going well. That is the pragmatist way, long live the pragmatists.

Yawn. Ever thought of saying something different. 'Not nearly as bad' except we are bottom of the table with .5. points per game and without a win since August. Yes everything is fine. Wake up and smell the coffee mate and try and come up with something original occasionally.

 

[Balham Green]

Can't be bothered to read all this thread, but I'll be realistic.
The football is woeful, it was woeful last year but we won so we put up with my it, this year we have 7 points from 14 games and it's boring to watch.
And to be really realistic, if it wasn't for 2 Carey worldies in the last 2 games we would have lost those as well, and the fact Blackburn's finishing was atrocious (25 shots on goal)
Whether the blame lies with Adams, the budget, or both, the 'reality' is the crowds will not keep on turning up to watch this borefest!

I think the blame lies with both Mark. My concern is the injuries and suspensions are a convenient excuse for his inadequacies.

 

[buck197]

DA’s brand of football at home last season was dire but we were winning and in the top three, we turned a blind eye mostly, including me. Boring negative football is only acceptable when the end justifies the means. Now we are struggling it’s highlighting the fact this team wasn’t great last season but were in a pish league. I still would like to see my(our) team try to win games at home, it isn’t like we have world class teams in this division and need to park two buses at home.