Flat back four and summer recruitment

[RKB]

It's an interesting OP because I hadn't thought about the fact that 3 ATB is right through the youth teams, and a long term change in formation would have to see them all adopt it.
This makes a permanent move to 4 ATB unlikely. Which is a real shame, because with the exception of Adam Lewis' 15 minutes of madness yesterday, we have looked far more solid. Aimson and Woods looked comfortable at CB yesterday, as did Aimson and Opoku the week before.
As others have said, it means they have to do less with the ball at their feet, which means they can primarily focus on just defending.
The 4-2-2-2 was forced into Lowe because of injuries and suspension, but with 4 points from 2 games surely it makes sense to keep it for now, even when Watts and Opoku are available again.

 

[Koala Green]

Some really good points on this thread.

Taking a step back, if we look at where we want to be next season, I think we expect and hope to be in Top 10 and hopefully fighting for 5th or 6th for a play off spot (I think top 2 is probably out of reach for next season) . So if we look at what that means lets look at Blackpool, Doncaster and Oxford and their season performance to date. Here's the latest league table https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/league-one/table

All have positive goal difference and looking at goals scored and conceded, Blackpool have scored 5 less than us but we have conceded 28 more than them, Donny have scored 4 more and we have conceded 15 more, and Oxford have scored 2 more but we've conceded 17 more.


So it looks like our goals scored column (49) is enough to get us in the mixer for the play off places but how do we stop conceding say 20 goals less a season (we've conceded 60 this season) ? I think this comes down to formation, personnel, game management and defending as a team.

On formation the 4-2-2-2 seems to work well for some games, so perhaps we use that and the 3-5-2 more frequently when the need arises. Aside from experience I think the personnel issue is a challenge as we all want the Lewis and Cooper attacking play but then it means they are exposed defensively. Finding the right balance is tough, last year I thought Fadz was also quite poor under the high ball too. The wing backs seem like crucial roles in this system. Lowe needs to recruit well for these.

The last point which I think is not discussed much is how we defend as a team and also improve game management. Frequently the back unit is left exposed and they are then scrambling, so more work on defending from the front, when to press, when to sit is needed too. We also need to manage the games better and switch formations especially post half time when the opposition has time to reset against us after they "work us out".

I would hope that with a season under our belt in League one for our core players plus the recruitment of better talent should be worth conceding 10 goals a season less (?) Then add in some tweaks to formation, game management could this save us another 10 goals? Thats got to be a few extra clean sheets and points hasn't it?!

2022 Play Offs and Wembley here we come! :scarf:

 

[Lobster]

He wasn’t blaming anybody else. Knibbs, and he may have been blaming himself. I, certainly, don’t think he was moaning about the players he has recruited.
As a young manager, he is entitled to reconsider his strategy, based on current experience, after less than a full season as a manager in League 1. Ok, he also had a short period as caretaker with Bury.
He has still got us into a relatively comfortable position and I would hope that next season we will have more experience in our central defence.

At 42, Lowe isn’t particularly a young manager considering the ages of the other League 1 managers.
Argyle’s last manager got sacked when he was 43, so perhaps that the age when you aren’t given any allowances for the mistakes of youth.

Our last manager was in his tenth season of management.
Lowe is in his fourth.
Give it a rest.

 

[Lesley Somerville]

Ryan Lowe’s post Blackpool interview was interesting. On 3 occasions he seemed to be questioning whether ‘lack of experience’ was a cause of problems with conceding soft goals.
I think we can assume that the management team are, at least, considering that possibility for next season.

I don't think Lowe should feel entitled to moan about that.

Whose decision was it to build a defence out of Opoku, Watts, Adam Lewis and Sam Woods? Young untested players who have no real idea of lower league football, just used to the gentle flow of the technical tippy tappy U23 league.

It was inevitable there would be some mental fragility coming our way with that approach and Lowe needs to take some responsibility for his recruitment.

If he signs them when their contracts expire, gets 250 league appearances out of them and a couple of league titles then it will have paid off. But if you neglect to spend any money on your defence, then pester clubs to take their young lads with 0 senior appearances, you can't really moan at what you end up with. Likewise when you get rid of two senior pros in January and replace them with two 21 year olds with no experience. Realistically what was Lowe expecting to happen? Did he think it was Tony Adams and Stuart Pearce that would be getting off the train?

He wasn't 'moaning'. He was giving a possible reason for the goals conceded, and from all the talk I've heard across the whole management team at Argyle, including Simon H, we are going to play youngsters and we will inevitably pay a price for that in terms of inexperience. We will also gain in other areas. There is no one right answer, but we have a philosophy now as a club and that's what informs the decision making at every level, it seems to me.

 

[gaspargomez]

I don’t think Lowe necessarily wants to play with two central defenders- it’s been forced on him because he hasn’t got any depth in that part of the squad. The fans saw this coming in January.

Having said that, the current 4-4-2 formation (which is effectively what they had at Blackpool) is tried and tested. Many teams have success playing that formation.

 

[The Doctor]

I don’t think Lowe necessarily wants to play with two central defenders- it’s been forced on him because he hasn’t got any depth in that part of the squad. The fans saw this coming in January.

Having said that, the current 4-4-2 formation (which is effectively what they had at Blackpool) is tried and tested. Many teams have success playing that formation.

And having said that, the current 4-4-2 formation seems to be working pretty well with all the central defenders who have played in it so far looking a lot more comfortable. I also think that the formation suits Fornah perfectly. If he was our player and not on loan then I'd be seriously thinking about seeing him as more of an 'advanced' ball-carrying centre-back than as a deep midfielder. In some ways the formation is more of a 2-1-3-2-2 with the 1 pushing forwards from deep and the central player in the 3 coming back to help as necessary (so perhaps it's a 2-4-2-2). Whether it has been forced on Ryan Lowe by accident or not I personally think that it is worth him exploring it a bit further and not actually such a departure from his preferred 3-5-2 as a traditional/regular 4-4-2 would be.

 

[demportdave]

I don’t think Lowe necessarily wants to play with two central defenders- it’s been forced on him because he hasn’t got any depth in that part of the squad. The fans saw this coming in January.

Having said that, the current 4-4-2 formation (which is effectively what they had at Blackpool) is tried and tested. Many teams have success playing that formation.

I think a number of Argyle fans think the players that we have look more comfotable with a flat back four, especially the CBs.

With the 2 holding midfielders in front, we look a bit more solid through the spine and as well as the CBs looking more comfortable, Fornah and Hodges also look better suited in that formation. They certainly look more comfortable bringing the ball forward than the 3 CBs who have played for much of the season, spending much of the time passing sideways and backwards. Without the responsibility of having to start attacks, I think Aimson in particular has looked a better player.

We looked pretty comfortable against an albeit struggling Bristol Rovers and very comfortable in the first half against quite a strong Blackpool side on a good run. Over the 90 minutes we probably deserved the draw but perhaps with a better defensive LB, we might even have won.

Kaola Green makes some good points with his stats, particularly regarding the number of goals we are conceeding. We have seen all season how vulnerable and open we are defensively playing with 3 at the back and WBs bombing forward. The system Lowe has adopted in the last 2 games may be the way to go next season.

The hierarchy at Argyle are very keen on the use of data and statistics to take the club forward and they will have plenty to think about when they look at this season's statistics.

We have conceded 2 goals or more in 20 of 38 League games, only 4 of the other 23 teams have conceded more goals than us.

You don't need to be Alan Turin or an IBM machine to work out where we need to improve.

 

[davie nine]

I’m sure you didn’t mean Hodges, Dave.
Conor Grant, perhaps?

 

[demportdave]

I’m sure you didn’t mean Hodges, Dave.
Conor Grant, perhaps?

Cheers davie, another 'senior' moment.

I got mixed up with another left-footer who was even more versatile than Conor Grant, Lee Hodges.

 

[davie nine]

No problem, Dave. I’ve had a few recently.

 

[Voice of Reason]

I've said it for a long time now, even with just one addition we'd be a real decent side. Now that addition needs to be an old school player (something Lowe doesn't like) - but how much better we would be as a unit with a big horrible old pro at the back, Gerry McElhinney/Mick Heathcote "i hate conceding, i hate losing" type of player.
That alone would rub off on others, they are a dying breed, look at clubs like Arsenal, they gift so many points because they just dont have someone who "rules" the back 4, its arguably far more important in the lower leagues than it is at the top.
Maybe its just the old bugger in me trying to escape, one of my favourite footballing moments at Argyle, was watching Jim Beglin, trying to play it "across the back" as i'm sure he was used to doing with Hansen and Lawrenson, when he tried it with Lyndsey Smith, Lyndsey hoofed it 50 yards into touch and gave him an absolute earful.

 

[Graham Clark]

Anyone watching last night's superb documentary. 'Finding Jack Charlton' will be reminded of his philosophy as a player.

"I wasn't very good at playing football. But I was very good at stopping other people playing football"

What Argyle have not excelled at this season is stopping 'other people playing football'. It is not just a pressing game but it's aggressive defending, getting a foot in, getting tight to players, winning headers etc. A bit of 'old school' defending if you like. The deeper lying CB's in the new 4-2-2-2 formation can concentrate more on defending rather than playing their way out within a back three. Aimson has definitely been more comfortable playing this way and Woods showed promise too.

The last two games have demonstrated that that we can move the ball forward with more purpose at at more pace. I hope we persist with it. The key it seems is for Fornah or Grant to slot in behind the wing backs (full backs?) if they have pushed high up the pitch. Game after game we've been vulnerable, particularly out wide, if we lose possession and perhaps the new system will make us more solid defensively but ultimately as Jack said it's being very good at stopping other people playing football.