Retained list (confirmed)

[pafcdje]

The population of Devon and Cornwall is about 1.7 million, nearly 3% of the population of England.

Argyle are the biggest club in the two counties and should have the pick of young players, so you could argue that proportionate to that, roughly one out of every thirty or so English footballers should be coming through the ranks at Home Park (meaning say, six or so players in every age group who go on to have a good pro career).

There are reasons why that's a bit simplistic, but we should surely be averaging a couple of pro standard players per year, and at least one of Premier League/Championship level. There are well over a dozen or so players from Devon and Cornwall playing in the top two divisions, which I think demonstrates that this is totally realistic.

As it is, since Adam Randell (plus Klaidi Lolos in the same cohort) we have now had three straight year groups go through without producing a single pro player.

It's massive under performance that costs the club a lot of good players and millions of pounds in revenue but because it's not really visible it gets overlooked. I fear there is quite a lot that we are getting badly wrong.

Not sure about the 12 players from the Championship/Premiership nor that at least 1 per year of premier/ championship ability. Obviously Watkins , Randell and Cooper , Christian Walton , Freddy Issaka ( just) , Matt Grimes , Adam Stansfield.

Players are starting to come through and the under 16s have done well this year and we did well in the Milk Cup last season but it’s a long process .

Obviously it’s a big step from the under 18s to the Championship and the Club are going to need to decide how they bridge that gap - some players may “ only” be L1 or L2 level .Lolos is arguably a good example - you could take the view that he’s now more proven that Waine .

It’s not necessarily about only selling upwards but also downwards ( with sell on fees) as well . Exeter through necessity have been much better at promoting from their Academy although obviously at a lower level . The fact that we are in the Championship and the new Academy should help in attracting young players. With our development centres in Cornwall we should be picking up all of their talent .

You can’t though rule out “ poaching “ from the Premiership as happened with Harry McGlinchey who went to Chelsea at 14 for £30/40k .

 

[McQ]

The population of Devon and Cornwall is about 1.7 million, nearly 3% of the population of England.

Argyle are the biggest club in the two counties and should have the pick of young players, so you could argue that proportionate to that, roughly one out of every thirty or so English footballers should be coming through the ranks at Home Park (meaning say, six or so players in every age group who go on to have a good pro career).

There are reasons why that's a bit simplistic, but we should surely be averaging a couple of pro standard players per year, and at least one of Premier League/Championship level. There are well over a dozen or so players from Devon and Cornwall playing in the top two divisions, which I think demonstrates that this is totally realistic.

As it is, since Adam Randell (plus Klaidi Lolos in the same cohort) we have now had three straight year groups go through without producing a single pro player.

It's massive under performance that costs the club a lot of good players and millions of pounds in revenue but because it's not really visible it gets overlooked. I fear there is quite a lot that we are getting badly wrong.

We are very much in the speculate to accumulate stage...all out, nothing in. Until we sell a homegrown player we will be running the academy at a loss. If the rumours about Cooper are true then that will be the first return, hopefully subsidising the source. Until we convert trainees into established pros then that sell model will be needed. Of course the other return on the youth is high performing players in the team achieving success(or heading off failure like this year)...we are almost at the point where the sell model might come to bear, but we are not yet close on the second area(for a few years now) and an earlier poster hit the nail on the head... we are getting good youngsters but the train slows or stops when they reach 1st year pro. We don't have an established pathway, There is no reserve football so loans are the only option. The local teams are just the 1st stepping stone level... the parkways, Truro or Weymouth are great to start with but better players play with better players. Endacott played in league 1. Playing for Tavistock may give minutes but little else(not meant to insult the club or that level, but he trained with championship level players then played with much lower level ones... that must have been demoralising). The other aspect of young players is they are not oven ready so need 2 maybe 3 years of further development, steadily increasing the standard. The issue with that, especially at a lower level is the club need to support the youngsters for longer...as each year graduates that will start to add up and drains the budget. I assume that is why we let go the likes of Pursall and not Halls and Endacott. The counter is, how many players that we let go prove the decision wrong? Not many, but I think it is to simplistic to say they are all not good enough, it takes a lot to move on, prove yourself again after that rejection.

I believe Brentford ditched this model after assessing that the investment did not deliver the value and you can see some merit in that, but they are in London, where I would say running the B team model is much easier to sustain.

Final point is that the higher the level of the first team the less opportunities there are... you just can't learn on the job and when you get an upwardly mobile team like we have been the trainees are having to keep up as everything around them gets better.

I'm not sure what my overall point is really, but aside from some burgeoning starlets...maybe Freddie... the system is not there yet...hopefully the club have a plan else we will keep graduating and keep releasing.

 

[George Willis]

Not sure about the 12 players from the Championship/Premiership nor that at least 1 per year of premier/ championship ability. Obviously Watkins , Randell and Cooper , Christian Walton , Freddy Issaka ( just) , Matt Grimes , Adam Stansfield.

Players are starting to come through and the under 16s have done well this year and we did well in the Milk Cup last season but it’s a long process .

Obviously it’s a big step from the under 18s to the Championship and the Club are going to need to decide how they bridge that gap - some players may “ only” be L1 or L2 level .Lolos is arguably a good example - you could take the view that he’s now more proven that Waine .

It’s not necessarily about only selling upwards but also downwards ( with sell on fees) as well . Exeter through necessity have been much better at promoting from their Academy although obviously at a lower level . The fact that we are in the Championship and the new Academy should help in attracting young players. With our development centres in Cornwall we should be picking up all of their talent .

You can’t though rule out “ poaching “ from the Premiership as happened with Harry McGlinchey who went to Chelsea at 14 for £30/40k although I’m not sure that would now be possible given the 90 minute travel rule .

I don't understand how you feel that Lolos is more proven than Waine. Lolos is a nearly a year older than Waine and the highest level he has reached is one season in League 2.

 

[Brussels Bureaucrat]

It's difficult with the trainees isn't it. I suppose they do have a book value, but realistically it's unlikely that many of them will make any impact at Championship level. I'm sure that if we can demonstrate that graduates go on to have a decent career in the professional game, whether here or elsewhere, it'll help with recruitment.

 

[pafcdje]

I agree .

It may be the intention , with the new more hard wearing pitch being put down , and once we get Academy category 2 status , and assuming we maintain our Championship status that the intention is to reinstate an under 21 team and seek to play in the under 21 professional development league .

 

[pafcdje]

I don't understand how you feel that Lolos is more proven than Waine. Lolos is a nearly a year older than Waine and the highest level he has reached is one season in League 2.

I did say “arguably” . Having been binned off by us and Torquay , Lolos had a successful season with Oxford City and this season in L2 has 13 goals and 6 assists . ie Waine isn’t proven at any level.

Most fans think that at this current time Championship football is above Waine’s ability and that he needs to go out on loan to either a L1 or L2 team to prove himself .

 

[saxman]

From Cal's twitter, for those who do not have access to view. A message from Cal.
View attachment 15336View attachment 15337

Top man.

 

[Mat]

you’re going to get way more misses than hits, premier league teams must release 99% of their graduating players, some of which of course are good enough to “sell downwards”. if you can get a first team player then that’s probably years worth of worthwhile investment.

totally agree with the sentiment of transition out of the U18. what age are we allowed to loan them to L1 or L2?

Exeter are the only real local club at a decent level and they’d likely to be loathed to take our kids.

 

[pastiesforlife]

Saxon Earley needs more time. Waino and Callum Wright are definitely not championship standard. Miller has shown glimpses of ability but as others have said, end product is simply not good enough for this league . Houghton and Randell are borderline for me. (Randell’s delivery from set plays is poor) would much prefer Darko in there! Forget sentiment. You can just see what he brings to team with his ball skills, energy and better passing ability. The fact is we have to improve the squad. Otherwise relegation is nailed on next year. The club loves data analysis… let’s hope we secure some good young players. unfortunately Azeez contract extension has been triggered but he is the type (wee gem) we need to identify. Whittaker will go if we get right price (8-10m) and agree with Cobi, if we can spend this money wisely, get fresh energy and quality into the team, maybe some premiership loans as well, we may be ok next year but it will be tough !!

Last season, Waine played 32 times and Callum Wright 21 times. A good proportion of those games were in the Championship.

By definition that seems to make them Championship standard.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

We are very much in the speculate to accumulate stage...all out, nothing in. Until we sell a homegrown player we will be running the academy at a loss. If the rumours about Cooper are true then that will be the first return, hopefully subsidising the source. Until we convert trainees into established pros then that sell model will be needed. Of course the other return on the youth is high performing players in the team achieving success(or heading off failure like this year)...we are almost at the point where the sell model might come to bear, but we are not yet close on the second area(for a few years now) and an earlier poster hit the nail on the head... we are getting good youngsters but the train slows or stops when they reach 1st year pro. We don't have an established pathway, There is no reserve football so loans are the only option. The local teams are just the 1st stepping stone level... the parkways, Truro or Weymouth are great to start with but better players play with better players. Endacott played in league 1. Playing for Tavistock may give minutes but little else(not meant to insult the club or that level, but he trained with championship level players then played with much lower level ones... that must have been demoralising). The other aspect of young players is they are not oven ready so need 2 maybe 3 years of further development, steadily increasing the standard. The issue with that, especially at a lower level is the club need to support the youngsters for longer...as each year graduates that will start to add up and drains the budget. I assume that is why we let go the likes of Pursall and not Halls and Endacott. The counter is, how many players that we let go prove the decision wrong? Not many, but I think it is to simplistic to say they are all not good enough, it takes a lot to move on, prove yourself again after that rejection.

I believe Brentford ditched this model after assessing that the investment did not deliver the value and you can see some merit in that, but they are in London, where I would say running the B team model is much easier to sustain.

Final point is that the higher the level of the first team the less opportunities there are... you just can't learn on the job and when you get an upwardly mobile team like we have been the trainees are having to keep up as everything around them gets better.

I'm not sure what my overall point is really, but aside from some burgeoning starlets...maybe Freddie... the system is not there yet...hopefully the club have a plan else we will keep graduating and keep releasing.

What do Exeter do with their young pros? Do they have a 'reserve' team in a local men's league or are they just better at picking suitable loan clubs than we are?

They have a much better record than we do of making sure their most promising youngsters don't hit a dead end in their development, so what are they doing they we aren't?

 

[oldage]

I think if Miller resigns we will be in a really good place, if we keep the rest. If Whit and Coops leave we could be in a really good place to build with the transfer cash

How will we be in a really good place.? The loanees have left and the rest of the players were only just good enough to keep us up this season. A lot depends on the new coach and new players he signs.

 

[McQ]

What do Exeter do with their young pros? Do they have a 'reserve' team in a local men's league or are they just better at picking suitable loan clubs than we are?

They have a much better record than we do of making sure their most promising youngsters don't hit a dead end in their development, so what are they doing they we aren't?

I was thinking the same thing, but their spring of talent seems to have dried up a little in recent years. It maybe their lower league position and shortage of funds to buy means they get the younger players in and around the 1st team after the loan periods . They still use the local teams(there are people popping up at Truro and parkway). Ollie watkins was at Weston-super-Mare. I don't think they have reserve football.

The other point I forgot in my original post is that for the last few years our youth teams have become more competitive against their peers...and this year even more so however the leagues look to be of variable quality. It is the FA youth cup where they get matched against the bigger clubs. The quality does seem to be improving...ie the raw material it is just those next steps that need sorting.

Ultimately no matter what club the odds on becoming a pro are very long and then year on year, remaining one...I imagine there are several hundreds being released again this year.

 

[Ade the green]

Last season, Waine played 32 times and Callum Wright 21 times. A good proportion of those games were in the Championship.

By definition that seems to make them Championship standard.

Another definition would be if offered for sale, what Championship level club would come in for them.

 

[Balham Green]

Last season, Waine played 32 times and Callum Wright 21 times. A good proportion of those games were in the Championship.

By definition that seems to make them Championship standard.

By that assessment the Rotherham players were Championship standard also. Bit simplistic. Just cos they played doesn't make them good enough. And we all know Waine got games cos bizarrely we had so few striker options. I'm not sure a League 1 team would take him. He's no better than Jephcott who has been struggling in L2

 

[greenpilled]

Not sure about the 12 players from the Championship/Premiership nor that at least 1 per year of premier/ championship ability. Obviously Watkins , Randell and Cooper , Christian Walton , Freddy Issaka ( just) , Matt Grimes , Adam Stansfield.

Players are starting to come through and the under 16s have done well this year and we did well in the Milk Cup last season but it’s a long process .

Obviously it’s a big step from the under 18s to the Championship and the Club are going to need to decide how they bridge that gap - some players may “ only” be L1 or L2 level .Lolos is arguably a good example - you could take the view that he’s now more proven that Waine .

It’s not necessarily about only selling upwards but also downwards ( with sell on fees) as well . Exeter through necessity have been much better at promoting from their Academy although obviously at a lower level . The fact that we are in the Championship and the new Academy should help in attracting young players. With our development centres in Cornwall we should be picking up all of their talent .

You can’t though rule out “ poaching “ from the Premiership as happened with Harry McGlinchey who went to Chelsea at 14 for £30/40k .

Ollie Watkins, Jack Stephens, Kieffer Moore, Ethan Ampadu, Sam Gallagher, Josh Key, Matt Grimes, Jay Stansfield, Ryan Leonard and Sean Morrison plus Cooper and Randell have all played regularly in the PL or Championship this season. Jack Sparkes at Portsmouth also won League 1.

That's 13 players (and there might be others I've missed) aged early 20s to early 30s. For that reason and the population stats I mentioned, i think it is very likely that there is at least one Championship quality player in every year group in the region and that Argyle should be doing a better job of finding and nurturing them. The academy upgrade will help massively but we should be doing better without that.