We cannot compete in this league (not)

[Green Flash]

How many clear cut chances did they create? How many saves did Cooper make? Wasn't that freakish. We defended well and Leicester were not that good in final third

No Leicester had a poor game and most of our team played above themselves. I do not mean that Leicester deserved to win that particular game, I mean that if the two squads met ten times, Leicester would win the vast majority of them.

 

[MGM]

I'd rather have a go and lose, than lose not having a go? I'm not saying we need to play a 1-1-7 formation and try to win the game 16-15, but it's been proven time and time again that if you sit deep against sides with higher quality, you lose far more often than not. There's obviously a balance to be struck there. If you have watched much of Luton this season, you will see their discipline in defending together and getting up the pitch when possible, together. They have a right go. They haven't parked 11 behind the ball for 90mins like Burnley under Dyche. Burnley were waiting for relegation with that style and eventually they got it. On the other hand, they've come up to the PL with Vincent Kompany, refused to adjust and got themselves relegated anyway. Like I say, balance to be had.

In the Leeds away game, despite them having a squad worth 25 times ours and proven PL players, they were desperate for the FT whistle in the end - because we were having a right go. We know there's room for improvement in the squad, but how much improvement (in £millions) is required to change that 2-1 loss to 2-2? Based off what I saw, I'd say not so many that it's un-affordable for us.

Some would make the valid argument that the Leeds away game is a one-off and on another day we would be spanked. I seem to recall losing 5-1 to Charlton, 5-1 to Grimsby, 5-2 to Peterborough and 4-0 to Bolton, ALL in the same year we won the league and made a cup final.

Then we see a totally different game. As l too was at Leeds & if you take out the 10 mins after Waine scored, for the other 80 mins we got battered.

It should have been many more by half time. Often these chances came by our own crazy choices when passing the ball in our own half. They didn’t even have to break us down. We gave them the ball from which many of their openings were made.

In the second half it was more of the same.

We are a long, long way off. Look at the Ipswich squad. Look at how they play football. We want to play a good attacking style in this league. We couldn’t afford Kieffer Moore’s shoelaces let alone his wages . Then look at other players they brought in. They have one of the most gifted left backs in this league in Leif Davies. They spent 2.5 million on him. They spent over 2 million of finding a forward who was playing in the championship & doing well, in Broadhead.

Then factor in that Whittaker will likely leave us. So we need to find 19 Championship goals from somewhere. Cooper is about to enter the final year of his contract. Galloway, who has been one of our best defenders this season, will be out of contract.

You talk about last season. Those teams created havoc against us because they moved the ball quickly & ran at us. Since Lowe was here we have had two flaws than he & Schumacher haven’t fixed & led to defensive issues. One is this passing around the back with no real purpose. We aren’t going anywhere with it at times. To the point we get ourselves in difficult situation. We also aren’t the greatest as a team in terms of basic passing. So we often gave up the ball in terrible situations, like l described above in the Leeds game, in the most basic of ways. Teams flood forward & counter attack the spaces. Secondly, our midfield. It’s not the most physical or athletic. Nobody in midfield protects that back 3 or 4 in a consistent way that stops teams running through us. Numerous games under Schumacher this season there are many examples of teams, especially away from home, doing this.

The reason why I wasn’t totally against Foster, is because he tried to stop us being played through. And in a way it worked away from home to an extent. We just lost the attacking impetus unfortunately in our transitional play when playing on the counter attack at Home Park.

 

[Rogue]

Then we see a totally different game. As l too was at Leeds & if you take out the 10 mins after Waine scored, for the other 80 mins we got battered.

It should have been many more by half time. Often these chances came by our own crazy choices when passing the ball in our own half. They didn’t even have to break us down. We gave them the ball from which many of their openings were made.

In the second half it was more of the same.

We are a long, long way off. Look at the Ipswich squad. Look at how they play football. We want to play a good attacking style in this league. We couldn’t afford Kieffer Moore’s shoelaces let alone his wages . Then look at other players they brought in. They have one of the most gifted left backs in this league in Leif Davies. They spent 2.5 million on him. They spent over 2 million of finding a forward who was playing in the championship & doing well, in Broadhead.

Then factor in that Whittaker will likely leave us. So we need to find 19 Championship goals from somewhere. Cooper is about to enter the final year of his contract. Galloway, who has been one of our best defenders this season, will be out of contract.

You talk about last season. Those teams created havoc against us because they moved the ball quickly & ran at us. Since Lowe was here we have had two flaws than he & Schumacher haven’t fixed & led to defensive issues. One is this passing around the back with no real purpose. We aren’t going anywhere with it at times. To the point we get ourselves in difficult situation. We also aren’t the greatest as a team in terms of basic passing. So we often gave up the ball in terrible situations, like l described above in the Leeds game, in the most basic of ways. Teams flood forward & counter attack the spaces. Secondly, our midfield. It’s not the most physical or athletic. Nobody in midfield protects that back 3 or 4 in a consistent way that stops teams running through us. Numerous games under Schumacher this season there are many examples of teams, especially away from home, doing this.

The reason why I wasn’t totally against Foster, is because he tried to stop us being played through. And in a way it worked away from home to an extent. We just lost the attacking impetus unfortunately in our transitional play when playing on the counter attack at Home Park.

For 80 minutes we got battered 2-0 by a team worth 25x our squad? So we should! But yet time and time again we prove otherwise.

The squad needs improvement, we agree. But what we did on the budget we have proves that we can improve without spending equal to or more than everybody else.

I would be very surprised if Cooper didn't sign a new deal in the summer.

If Whittaker goes, it'll be because he wants to and the finances will massively strengthen the clubs ability in the market. Therefore, that's a win win.

I'd rather have our owners and board and £10m to spend, than I would have 90% of the psychopath owners with billions that most clubs we are competing with have!

 

[MGM]

For 80 minutes we got battered 2-0 by a team worth 25x our squad? So we should! But yet time and time again we prove otherwise.

The squad needs improvement, we agree. But what we did on the budget we have proves that we can improve without spending equal to or more than everybody else.

I would be very surprised if Cooper didn't sign a new deal in the summer.

If Whittaker goes, it'll be because he wants to and the finances will massively strengthen the clubs ability in the market. Therefore, that's a win win.

I'd rather have our owners and board and £10m to spend, than I would have 90% of the psychopath owners with billions that most clubs we are competing with have!

We are not going to spend 10 million on transfer fees. If we got that kind of money it will be divided on playing budget & infrastructure. Argyle will continue to look for ’bargains’ and try to polish up those players.

As for the Leeds game you said we got battered. That tells you the gulf in performance between the two sides. The scoreline, doesn't.

I like the owners we got and like yourself am happy we don't have psychopath type owners. The reality is though they are still billionaires. Look at Hull City as an example. They are spending ridiculous amounts for a club their size.

If people think we are selling Whittaker and spending millions on new players because of this sale, l can't see it. Argyle will once again look for your Ben Waine's of this world & hope they strike it lucky. If they do bring in more experience, which l think they need, it will be free transfer like Forshaw.

We aren't going from a club with around a 6 and a half million playing budget to a side who spends 10 million on transfers.

 

[Balham Green]

We are not going to spend 10 million on transfer fees. If we got that kind of money it will be divided on playing budget & infrastructure. Argyle will continue to look for ’bargains’ and try to polish up those players.

As for the Leeds game you said we got battered. That tells you the gulf in performance between the two sides. The scoreline, doesn't.

I like the owners we got and like yourself am happy we don't have psychopath type owners. The reality is though they are still billionaires. Look at Hull City as an example. They are spending ridiculous amounts for a club their size.

If people think we are selling Whittaker and spending millions on new players because of this sale, l can't see it. Argyle will once again look for your Ben Waine's of this world & hope they strike it lucky. If they do bring in more experience, which l think they need, it will be free transfer like Forshaw.

We aren't going from a club with around a 6 and a half million playing budget to a side who spends 10 million on transfers.

I think we do need to spend 10m to avoid a relegation battle next season if we stay up this. There is the tv money as well as the Whittaker deal and possibly Cooper also.

 

[Balham Green]

We are not going to spend 10 million on transfer fees. If we got that kind of money it will be divided on playing budget & infrastructure. Argyle will continue to look for ’bargains’ and try to polish up those players.

As for the Leeds game you said we got battered. That tells you the gulf in performance between the two sides. The scoreline, doesn't.

I like the owners we got and like yourself am happy we don't have psychopath type owners. The reality is though they are still billionaires. Look at Hull City as an example. They are spending ridiculous amounts for a club their size.

If people think we are selling Whittaker and spending millions on new players because of this sale, l can't see it. Argyle will once again look for your Ben Waine's of this world & hope they strike it lucky. If they do bring in more experience, which l think they need, it will be free transfer like Forshaw.

We aren't going from a club with around a 6 and a half million playing budget to a side who spends 10 million on transfers.

Did you think we would spend 2 million last Summer? We are with the big boys now. I really don't fancy doing a Rotherham.

 

[IJN]

Yep £10m easily next season if not more.

We are nowhere near competing with the mids let alone the tops.

Hence my original comment that our model can't work in this league.

Hence why SHE is after investment AND working smarter. Then perhaps we can have a little piece of mid table boredom!

 

[MGM]

Did you think we would spend 2 million last Summer? We are with the big boys now. I really don't fancy doing a Rotherham.

It’s not just the 10 million. It’s the huge wages that comes with a number of players of that calibre.

Our playing budget would have to be significantly better. Maybe they going to change the model after their experiences from this season?

l think they will spend more. But so will everyone else because of the extra tv money.

Firstly, let’s get over the line first. This season isn’t finished yet.

 

[Rogue]

We are not going to spend 10 million on transfer fees. If we got that kind of money it will be divided on playing budget & infrastructure. Argyle will continue to look for ’bargains’ and try to polish up those players.

As for the Leeds game you said we got battered. That tells you the gulf in performance between the two sides. The scoreline, doesn't.

I'm not saying they'd spend all £10m, it was an example. What they would spend is all relative to what they make.

As for your second point, the scoreline is ultimately all that counts. And we have a large enough sample size to suggest that getting battered every now and then is a biproduct of playing the football we (most fans) want.

I'm ok with being battered by Leeds (if we turn up with the intention of playing a good game) - because of the gulf in talent and finances. You don't get 6-2 games against Norwich either, by the way, if you sit back for 90mins. There's a gulf there in talent and finances too. Why didn't we roll over Grimsby, given the gulf of talent and finance?

If the only thing that mattered in football was money, us and Luton would be in league one. It just isn't the case.

Look at it the other way around - Chelsea and United have also provided perfect evidence how money doesn't buy you success.

 

[MGM]

I'm not saying they'd spend all £10m, it was an example. What they would spend is all relative to what they make.

As for your second point, the scoreline is ultimately all that counts. And we have a large enough sample size to suggest that getting battered every now and then is a biproduct of playing the football we (most fans) want.

I'm ok with being battered by Leeds (if we turn up with the intention of playing a good game) - because of the gulf in talent and finances. You don't get 6-2 games against Norwich either, by the way, if you sit back for 90mins. There's a gulf there in talent and finances too. Why didn't we roll over Grimsby, given the gulf of talent and finance?

If the only thing that mattered in football was money, us and Luton would be in league one. It just isn't the case.

Look at it the other way around - Chelsea and United have also provided perfect evidence how money doesn't buy you success.

Let’s just say Luton, Sheffield Utd, Burnley are relegated.

That for Argyle to stay up it’s likely Wednesday & Huddersfield join Rotherham. But if you prefer can swap Stoke around for Huddersfield.

Portsmouth, Derby & Peterborough get promoted.

Who are we having a bigger transfer budget then, other than perhaps Peterborough. And who are we spending more money then in terms playing budget (players wages) than Peterborough.

These teams like Portsmouth & Derby will likely to have a much bigger competitive budget in comparable terms to ours.

You give Luton as an example, about money not being important. They spent over 100% of their turnover on players. Argyle would never do this. So money is important. Had Luton not gambled & not spent beyond their means their chances of going up are ridiculously reduced.

lm sorry, if you can’t see the gulf in talent to us compared to Leicester, Leeds & Ipswich & think we are only a few million away to actually competing with these type of squads than respectfully l have to totally disagree. The reason l talk about performances, rather than results is you can get a decent run of results & not play well. Yet it’s not sustainable forever. Yet if that’s how you want to judge how well Argyle are doing then fair enough.

To build this club it’s going to take slow growth. And a lot of money. Staying in this division is step one. Else next season we will competing against clubs like Stockport who have a bigger budget than us due to their ownership. It’s not fair. It’s just the way football is.

Look who has dominated the top league of English football for past 7 years. Manchester City. The richest club in the world. Look at the the first four clubs in the championship. Three are relegated clubs with parachute payments. Money is becoming more of a factor year after year. The gulf is widening. Look at league two. Look who has gone up. Stockport & Wrexham. And people may scoff who are they but look at how much they’re investing on & off field. The best recent success story of the last 10 years is Brentford & Brighton. Look at their owners & look how much it cost them to get to the PL. For everyone one of these clubs there is a Bristol City / Reading treading water & losing millions to compete.

Without a hard reset in football or a billionaire Argyle will struggle in the Championship. Maybe with a good wind behind them there will be a year / season we get close in the next 5 years. Yet as soon as that happens the vultures will circle & take our manager & better players. That’s the reality we face.

 

[doozer]

If we sell Whittaker in the summer I can see us bringing in 2 or 3 £1 million players …players worth £2 million or more will likely be asking for wages way beyond what we’re prepared to pay

 

[MGM]

If we sell Whittaker in the summer I can see us bringing in 2 or 3 £1 million players …players worth £2 million or more will likely be asking for wages way beyond what we’re prepared to pay

That’s exactly my point. We simply won’t be able to afford the wages that other teams will be prepared to pay for a 2 million plus player.

 

[Rogue]

Let’s just say Luton, Sheffield Utd, Burnley are relegated.

That for Argyle to stay up it’s likely Wednesday & Huddersfield join Rotherham. But if you prefer can swap Stoke around for Huddersfield.

Portsmouth, Derby & Peterborough get promoted.

Who are we having a bigger transfer budget then, other than perhaps Peterborough. And who are we spending more money then in terms playing budget (players wages) than Peterborough.

These teams like Portsmouth & Derby will likely to have a much bigger competitive budget in comparable terms to ours.

You give Luton as an example, about money not being important. They spent over 100% of their turnover on players. Argyle would never do this. So money is important. Had Luton not gambled & not spent beyond their means their chances of going up are ridiculously reduced.

lm sorry, if you can’t see the gulf in talent to us compared to Leicester, Leeds & Ipswich & think we are only a few million away to actually competing with these type of squads than respectfully l have to totally disagree. The reason l talk about performances, rather than results is you can get a decent run of results & not play well. Yet it’s not sustainable forever. Yet if that’s how you want to judge how well Argyle are doing then fair enough.

To build this club it’s going to take slow growth. And a lot of money. Staying in this division is step one. Else next season we will competing against clubs like Stockport who have a bigger budget than us due to their ownership. It’s not fair. It’s just the way football is.

Look who has dominated the top league of English football for past 7 years. Manchester City. The richest club in the world. Look at the the first four clubs in the championship. Three are relegated clubs with parachute payments. Money is becoming more of a factor year after year. The gulf is widening. Look at league two. Look who has gone up. Stockport & Wrexham. And people may scoff who are they but look at how much they’re investing on & off field. The best recent success story of the last 10 years is Brentford & Brighton. Look at their owners & look how much it cost them to get to the PL. For everyone one of these clubs there is a Bristol City / Reading treading water & losing millions to compete.

Without a hard reset in football or a billionaire Argyle will struggle in the Championship. Maybe with a good wind behind them there will be a year / season we get close in the next 5 years. Yet as soon as that happens the vultures will circle & take our manager & better players. That’s the reality we face.

A lot of our conversation has become quite silly. I don't think we're really disagreeing about much. Particularly that for Argyle this will be a slow process. I said earlier in this thread in fact that I felt given so much had gone wrong this season, that next season would probably be another season of just trying to stay in the league. I'm happy with that, as long as we're having a right go whilst we do it.

My point is only that money is not the only factor.

We will need investment long term to push on, yes.

Do we need it right this second to survive next season? My opinion is no. But that's assuming we recruit well on the limited budget we have, like we did for the last 2 seasons.

I see the gulf in finance and quality you talk about, but in every game we had a chance. Those chances will be bigger if we improve the squad.

You highlight my point even more when you ask "Who are we having a bigger transfer budget then, other than perhaps Peterborough. And who are we spending more money then in terms playing budget (players wages) than Peterborough."

We spent a very similar amount to Rotherham and have double the points. We spend a fraction of that of Blackburn, Stoke, Millwall, QPR, Swansea, Huddersfield, Wednesday and Birmingham. Yet we're in the mix with them.

How did we win the league last year? If Ipswich's finances are so much bigger? And yet this season they're competing at the top.

Football would be so boring if money was the only factor.

 

[gundolt]

First half of season Hardie would be in most squads in the championship.

Which is the frustrating thing about Ryan, second half of season? League one at best? He may be the one whose form suffered most under Foster.