Who do we want as our new Manager

[PAFC123]

Anyone I would get excited about likely (a) we couldn’t afford, or (b) wouldn't want to come.

There may be some Premier League assistants that may be interested, but then someone like Pep Ljinders wouldn't give us a first thought. So your likely looking at their youth or U21 coaches.

The “Heach Coach” title from ND, worries me a little as I think that means we won’t necessarily get an experienced manager, and likely will have someone in their first role. Really the job title should come as part of the compensation discussion after you think you have the right person.

I don’t think this is something to worry about so much, although I understand why people would. I’ve said it multiple times, with foster it was the type of experience he’s had. If we got a person who has been involved in club football every week and very recently if not currently, I generally think that will go a huge way to them being better than foster. I agree that we are probably looking at coaches. I think the most similar we are going to get is a first team coach who is generally the person in charge of going out on the training pitch and leading the sessions. That for me is why Andrew Crofts at Brighton is and has been my first choice even before foster came in. He wants to become a manager as he applied for the Oxford job and he’s coaching one of the best footballing teams in the country day in day out. Plus he’s at one of the best run clubs in the country who are surely carrying out a similar model to what we would be so surely he could give us a load of tips too? If you watch his interview from when he was the interim manager after potter left, he speaks very well and he just seems very likeable. Realistically the head coach title tells you that Dewsnip may well have a lot to say in terms of tactics so I think the most important trait of whoever is the new boss is that they are a good man manager and liked by the players and fans to keep every United like we were before foster. Providing that’s the case I think we will be okay

 

[ContinentalCol]

It may just be semantics but with Argyle looking at Head Coaches, surely we are ruling out a whole slew of people who are Managers. A case in point, although I am not an advocate of him, Nigel Pearson said on the Tippy Tappy Podcast "I am not a Head Coach I am a Manager, I can coach with the best of them but i manage a football club"

I wonder if the right person did come along and he said i am a Manager would Argyle say oh thats a shame we wanted a Head Coach never mind thanks anyway.

 

[Railway sleeper]

It may just be semantics but with Argyle looking at Head Coaches, surely we are ruling out a whole slew of people who are Managers. A case in point, although I am not an advocate of him, Nigel Pearson said on the Tippy Tappy Podcast "I am not a Head Coach I am a Manager, I can coach with the best of them but i manage a football club"

I wonder if the right person did come along and he said i am a Manager would Argyle say oh thats a shame we wanted a Head Coach never mind thanks anyway.

I think theres something in what you say - unfortunately

My concern is that what we might end up is a partnership between two learners- because although hes an experienced coach, as a manager neil dewsnip is a learner

My perception - rightly or wrongly- is that neil dewsnip wants 'seniority' in the partnership ....and is this why we have been targeting coaches ??

The system seems to be one which was patented by Vladimir Putin- whereby you have power and no accountability

If things go wrong - bin the coach and get a new young coach in

If I'm right- and this only my perception- were going to end up with a very weak management structure comprised of two 'L' plate men

It's a 'no' from me to this silly structure- let's have a good old fashioned manager

Somebody who's done the job before and is good at it..

 

[Mark58]

The head coach that I would like to see at Argyle would be part Shuey and part Arsene Wenger.

Sadly, for many, the 'Arse' part would definitely seem to apply to Schuey now...

 

[NearlyCornish]

Not a chance be out of our budget

He will be snapped up by Bromley...

 

[WoodsyGreen]

My perception - rightly or wrongly- is that neil dewsnip wants 'seniority' in the partnership ....and is this why we have been targeting coaches ??

It isn't up to him, though. There seems to be this perception that Neil Dewsnip is some power-hungry tyrant who has the club in an iron grip and quite frankly it's absolutely ridiculous.

Below is a list of job titles used by Championship clubs for the guy in charge of their first teams. You'll see that only three clubs have a 'Manager', and two of those made their appointments in the lower leagues, where fewer clubs have directors of football.

The trend has very obviously moved away from old-fashioned managers who would have absolute power and control, towards hiring coaches to look after the first-team and only the first-team. The relevant experts in their field are hired to take care of recruitment, youth, fitness, analytics etc, which is precisely the way it should be.

This is absolutely nothing to do with Dewsnip being power hungry and everything to do with Argyle being a forward-thinking club that keeps up with industry trends.

Coventry - Manager
Ipswich - Manager
Leeds - Manager
Birmingham - First-team Manager
Cardiff - First-team Manager
Leicester - First-team Manager
Preston - First-team Manager
Sheff Weds- First-team Manager
Blackburn - Head Coach
Bristol City - Head Coach
Huddersfield - Head Coach
Hull - Head Coach
Middlesbrough - Head Coach
Millwall - Head Coach
Norwich - Head Coach
Plymouth Argyle - Head Coach
QPR - Head Coach
Rotherham - Head Coach*
Southampton - Head Coach
Stoke - Head Coach
Sunderland - Head Coach*
Swansea - Head Coach
Watford - Head Coach
West Brom - Head Coach

*job title of last incumbent

Edit: If Nigel Pearson has publicly insisted that he is a manager and not a head coach then he won't be returning to the Championship any time soon.

 

[Railway sleeper]

It isn't up to him, though. There seems to be this perception that Neil Dewsnip is some power-hungry tyrant who has the club in an iron grip and quite frankly it's absolutely ridiculous.

Below is a list of job titles used by Championship clubs for the guy in charge of their first teams. You'll see that only three clubs have a 'Manager', and two of those made their appointments in the lower leagues, where fewer clubs have directors of football.

The trend has very obviously moved away from old-fashioned managers who would have absolute power and control, towards hiring coaches to look after the first-team and only the first-team. The relevant experts in their field are hired to take care of recruitment, youth, fitness, analytics etc, which is precisely the way it should be.

This is absolutely nothing to do with Dewsnip being power hungry and everything to do with Argyle being a forward-thinking club that keeps up with industry trends.

Coventry - Manager
Ipswich - Manager
Leeds - Manager
Birmingham - First-team Manager
Bristol City- First-team Manager
Cardiff - First-team Manager
Leicester - First-team Manager
Preston - First-team Manager
Blackburn - Head Coach
Bristol City - Head Coach
Huddersfield - Head Coach
Hull - Head Coach
Middlesbrough - Head Coach
Millwall - Head Coach
Norwich - Head Coach
Plymouth Argyle - Head Coach
QPR - Head Coach
Rotherham - Head Coach*
Southampton - Head Coach
Stoke - Head Coach
Sunderland - Head Coach*
Swansea - Head Coach
Watford - Head Coach
West Brom - Head Coach

*job title of last incumbent

Thanks for the reply woodsy

It's good that were having a debate about this I think- which is what I wanted really....since it's such a big change to the way that football clubs have traditionally been run

I've listed the possible demerits of the system, along with my perceptions ( which may of course be wrong) - I'd be interested to hear what others think though, who might take a different view to me

There are some interesting issues which arise from the structure I think

Contrary views to mine, would be welcome

I note that some clubs who started to use this system ( millwall) have subsequently abandoned it

The system discounts the need for experience- so that we get into the situation in which we found ourselves in this season- 5 consecutive home defeats with a 'head coach' with no experience of management at the helm

That's not to say that this situation wouldn't have arisen if there had been an experienced manager at the helm- but my perception would be that it would be less likely . Why - hindsight and reflection.simply because an experienced manager would have been through that sort of experience before, probably, and would know how to handle it better than a novice coach ? Why ? Because experience is valuable isnt it ? Because if we are sensible we reflect on our performances ( whatever job we each happen to do) the last time we came across a similar situation including what we did right and also what we did wrong the last time- so that next time we come across a similar situation, we handle it better.

I have a few issues with the idea of a young coach. Where is there room for an experienced older head in this system ? And because of that- and this is my concern- I think it will make us weaker as a football club going forward.

I can see the potential benefits to an owner for example, in having a director of football who is hands- on.

Another issue is this - when does a director-of- football become accountable ? I note stoke changed theirs this season.Having said all that I am grateful for all the work that neil dewsnip has done this season.

Would people be happy to see another learner appointed, when there are so many good experienced managers available ?

Would be happy to hear from people who take a contrary view to me, as I think this major change in the way football teams are being structured and run, is a legitimate subject for debate amongst fans.....

 

[Biggs]

I wonder if the right person did come along and he said i am a Manager would Argyle say oh thats a shame we wanted a Head Coach never mind thanks anyway.

He wouldn't be the right person then

 

[Jon with no H]

Thanks for the reply woodsy

It's good that were having a debate about this I think- which is what I wanted really....since it's such a big change to the way that football clubs have traditionally been run

I've listed the possible demerits of the system, along with my perceptions ( which may of course be wrong) - I'd be interested to hear what others think though, who might take a different view to me

There are some interesting issues which arise from the structure I think

Contrary views to mine, would be welcome

I note that some clubs who started to use this system ( millwall) have subsequently abandoned it

The system discounts the need for experience- so that we get into the situation in which we found ourselves in this season- 5 consecutive home defeats with a 'head coach' with no experience of management at the helm

That's not to say that this situation wouldn't have arisen if there had been an experienced manager at the helm- but my perception would be that it would be less likely . Why - hindsight and reflection.simply because an experienced manager would have been through that sort of experience before, probably, and would know how to handle it better than a novice coach ? Why ? Because experience is valuable isnt it ? Because if we are sensible we reflect on our performances ( whatever job we each happen to do) the last time we came across a similar situation including what we did right and also what we did wrong the last time- so that next time we come across a similar situation, we handle it better.

I have a few issues with the idea of a young coach. Where is there room for an experienced older head in this system ? And because of that- and this is my concern- I think it will make us weaker as a football club going forward.

I can see the potential benefits to an owner for example, in having a director of football who is hands- on.

Another issue is this - when does a director-of- football become accountable ? I note stoke changed theirs this season.Having said all that I am grateful for all the work that neil dewsnip has done this season.

Would people be happy to see another learner appointed, when there are so many good experienced managers available ?

Would be happy to hear from people who take a contrary view to me, as I think this major change in the way football teams are being structured and run, is a legitimate subject for debate amongst fans.....

There was a really interesting post about the value of experience recently, my apologies to the poster that I can't remember who it was, but the contribution was extremely useful nonetheless. Essentially, it's not as valuable as we might think.

For every Foster, there is a Schumacher (and like the A-Team, if you can find them, a McKenna), so I don't believe ending up with one sort rather than the other is down to how long they've been a manager before.

After all, a lot of the experienced types have been through the exact same experience several times, yet they never change anything in their approach and just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, and so on. Someone like Paul Lambert, for example, seems to have done exactly the same things at all of the clubs he got the sack from. He has a lot of experience but has never changed, so has he learned anything from that experience?

I feel the last thing we want is someone who does thing a certain way because that's the way they've always done them. Schumacher was, at least from my point of view, extremely flexible of mind and prepared to think outside the box to seek any kind of advantage.

The way the Championship is, such frequent changes of manager/head coach, means that numerous clubs are effectively starting from square one at least twice a season. Having a consistent approach throughout the club, but sometimes having to appoint a different individual to steer that approach seems like a sensible thing in comparison, to me anyway. That is the biggest factor in favour of having a Director of Football. As for when they are accountable, I would imagine every time there's a board meeting.

Not related to your post, but I agree entirely with WoodsyGreen. It's crazy the way Neil Dewsnip is painted as some wannabe dictator and anything positive he has done, such as probably agreeing it was a good idea to replace Ryan Lowe with his assistant, is completely ignored.

 

[Railway sleeper]

There was a really interesting post about the value of experience recently, my apologies to the poster that I can't remember who it was, but the contribution was extremely useful nonetheless. Essentially, it's not as valuable as we might think.

For every Foster, there is a Schumacher (and like the A-Team, if you can find them, a McKenna), so I don't believe ending up with one sort rather than the other is down to how long they've been a manager before.

After all, a lot of the experienced types have been through the exact same experience several times, yet they never change anything in their approach and just rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, and so on. Someone like Paul Lambert, for example, seems to have done exactly the same things at all of the clubs he got the sack from. He has a lot of experience but has never changed, so has he learned anything from that experience?

I feel the last thing we want is someone who does thing a certain way because that's the way they've always done them. Schumacher was, at least from my point of view, extremely flexible of mind and prepared to think outside the box to seek any kind of advantage.

The way the Championship is, such frequent changes of manager/head coach, means that numerous clubs are effectively starting from square one at least twice a season. Having a consistent approach throughout the club, but sometimes having to appoint a different individual to steer that approach seems like a sensible thing in comparison, to me anyway. That is the biggest factor in favour of having a Director of Football. As for when they are accountable, I would imagine every time there's a board meeting.

Not related to your post, but I agree entirely with WoodsyGreen. It's crazy the way Neil Dewsnip is painted as some wannabe dictator and anything positive he has done, such as probably agreeing it was a good idea to replace Ryan Lowe with his assistant, is completely ignored.

Interesting post but I have to disagree that experience is not valuable- that goes against industry standards everywhere, except perhaps football

And ignores the idea that people will become better as a result of experience

I do see the current idea of DOF/ young coach as a fad .And if you do something there has to be a rationale to it- rather than ' this is the way everybody is doing it these days'

Its legitimate to appoint a star young coach to a management position.But the trick would be to recognize that person when you see them- as Argyle didnt, when Lennie lawrence became caretaker ( appointing malcolm allison, permanently instead), and notts county did when appointing neil warnock and effectively demoting club legend jimmy sirrel.

The idea that every young coach is going to be a star, seems just as silly to me ( and therefore likely to lead to high attrition rates) as the idea that experience and success in club management is not of value. It clearly is, in my view.....

 

[Cobi Budge]

Not that it means anything but the first odds list has now been posted (BetVictor).

Alex Neil 4/1
Paul Heckingbottom 5/1
Nigel Pearson 6/1
Paul Cook 8/1
Nathan Jones 8/1
Leighton Baines 8/1
Gary Rowett 10/1
Grant McCann 10/1
Gareth Ainsworth 12/1
Brian Barry-Murphy 12/1
Pete Wild 16/1
Mike Williamson 16/1
Michael Beale 16/1
Mark Warburton 16/1

 

[rsp4]

Isn't the longest serving manager in the Championship a certain RL at PNE?

Cut his teeth in league 2 successfully, then did well in league 1 and has held his own in the championship.

Surely thats the model we should be looking for? Not fussed if its a foreign coach who has cut his teeth already. Look at what the Wendies manager did from October onwards when he joined them on 3 points!!!

 

[rongreenblood]

Will it be a case of one of the other two who were in the frame with Foster will be the choice, as Hallett has stated that it was as much of a toss of a coin who was picked from those three.

 

[Jon with no H]

Interesting post but I have to disagree that experience is not valuable- that goes against industry standards everywhere, except perhaps football

And ignores the idea that people will become better as a result of experience

I do see the current idea of DOF/ young coach as a fad .And if you do something there has to be a rationale to it- rather than ' this is the way everybody is doing it these days'

Its legitimate to appoint a star young coach to a management position.But the trick would be to recognize that person when you see them- as Argyle didnt, when Lennie lawrence became caretaker ( appointing malcolm allison, permanently instead), and notts county did when appointing neil warnock and effectively demoting club legend jimmy sirrel.

The idea that every young coach is going to be a star, seems just as silly to me ( and therefore likely to lead to high attrition rates) as the idea that experience and success in club management is not of value. It clearly is, in my view.....

I'm absolutely not saying there is no value in experience, just not as much value as it can appear. What I think is more important is knowledge, and that's not necessarily gained from going through the motions for job after job year after year.

I agree that not every young coach is going to be a success, but that's just as true of older coaches - I appreciate Kieran McKenna is an outlier, but he actually has a lot of coaching experience for someone of 37 years of age, after stopping playing at 22.

Perhaps Shane Warne's one time assessment of Monty Panesar is the way to express my point on these older heads. According to Warne, Monty hadn't played fifty test matches, he had played one test match fifty times.

 

[Cobi Budge]

Isn't the longest serving manager in the Championship a certain RL at PNE?

Cut his teeth in league 2 successfully, then did well in league 1 and has held his own in the championship.

Surely thats the model we should be looking for? Not fussed if its a foreign coach who has cut his teeth already. Look at what the Wendies manager did from October onwards when he joined them on 3 points!!!

Mark Robins is the longest serving, Lowe is 2nd.