Grandstand Update

[pedro91]

(For Quizmike it won't let me quote more than 6 posts)

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I do know that Stage 2 isn't costed to come in with the £5m Stage 1.

It may take a few days weeks or months for this to be confirmed, because transparency isn't a priority. It is because of that lack of transparency, that people are being duped into thinking Stage 2 is all set to go with Stage 1. It isn't. It is shiny picture propaganda.

You'll realise soon enough.

And so it came to pass.....(for QuizMike) The transcript below is from the official site.

The budget of £5m covers Stage 1 only (and does not cover the new roof and floodlight, which are being separately funded - see below). The Board currently has no agreed programme to execute Stage 2; it will proceed when it is in the interests of the Clubto do so and we have funding available.

So at last there we have it.

Now it is hardly an 'extreme view' to point out something that has proved to be 100% correct us it?

I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to since the shiny mythical Stage2 pics were rolled out, who genuinely thought Stage2 was happening. They were duped by the shiny pictures of a nice wrap-around stand.

What's sad is that yet again we aren't grasping the nettle. If the club are willing to borrow £5m over a 30 yr period, borrowing a percentage more over an extended period and getting the job done properly (Stage2) would have meant that the capacity is there ready and waiting when we get the the 2nd tier.

Instead we'll have a realistic capacity of around 17,000 at best with segregation and people locked out.

Hey ho. Janner mentality I guess.

Easy to say "why not borrow/spend more" but in reality what position is PAFC in to increase its debt levels? We are fortunate to be given £5m at a very low interest rate because its from a favourable source. Any other multimillionaire fans out there to stump up some more? They've never come forward before so the likelihood is minimal.

So say we need £2m more to do stage 2/floodlights/ roof etc, where does that come from? Will banks lend us £2m? If so at what rates and repayment schedules. Are we still seen as high risk? Will the interest costs and repayments swallow up funds that could be invested in the team just on the off-chance that we get promoted in the next 2 years?

L1 is no walk in the park... just look at the teams there now. We aren't guaranteed promotion this season, next, within the next 5.

So we could have excess capacity and costs which are not required at this stage and have no certain or even highly likely probability that they will be other than on 1/2 occasions each season.

We've borrowed beyond our means before... lets not walk that path again eh?

Put simply, if Simon can lend us £5 and not bankrupt himself, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility for him to perhaps lend another £2m.

Let's be clear honest and realistic. PAFC's record of getting things done buildwise historically is pretty shocking. This is frustrating because we're missing a golden opportunity. Hey ho.

What colour is the sky on your planet?

Won't take long to pay back £5!!!

 

[Greenskin]

(For Quizmike it won't let me quote more than 6 posts)

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I do know that Stage 2 isn't costed to come in with the £5m Stage 1.

It may take a few days weeks or months for this to be confirmed, because transparency isn't a priority. It is because of that lack of transparency, that people are being duped into thinking Stage 2 is all set to go with Stage 1. It isn't. It is shiny picture propaganda.

You'll realise soon enough.

And so it came to pass.....(for QuizMike) The transcript below is from the official site.

The budget of £5m covers Stage 1 only (and does not cover the new roof and floodlight, which are being separately funded - see below). The Board currently has no agreed programme to execute Stage 2; it will proceed when it is in the interests of the Clubto do so and we have funding available.

So at last there we have it.

Now it is hardly an 'extreme view' to point out something that has proved to be 100% correct us it?

I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to since the shiny mythical Stage2 pics were rolled out, who genuinely thought Stage2 was happening. They were duped by the shiny pictures of a nice wrap-around stand.

What's sad is that yet again we aren't grasping the nettle. If the club are willing to borrow £5m over a 30 yr period, borrowing a percentage more over an extended period and getting the job done properly (Stage2) would have meant that the capacity is there ready and waiting when we get the the 2nd tier.

Instead we'll have a realistic capacity of around 17,000 at best with segregation and people locked out.

Hey ho. Janner mentality I guess.

Easy to say "why not borrow/spend more" but in reality what position is PAFC in to increase its debt levels? We are fortunate to be given £5m at a very low interest rate because its from a favourable source. Any other multimillionaire fans out there to stump up some more? They've never come forward before so the likelihood is minimal.

So say we need £2m more to do stage 2/floodlights/ roof etc, where does that come from? Will banks lend us £2m? If so at what rates and repayment schedules. Are we still seen as high risk? Will the interest costs and repayments swallow up funds that could be invested in the team just on the off-chance that we get promoted in the next 2 years?

L1 is no walk in the park... just look at the teams there now. We aren't guaranteed promotion this season, next, within the next 5.

So we could have excess capacity and costs which are not required at this stage and have no certain or even highly likely probability that they will be other than on 1/2 occasions each season.

We've borrowed beyond our means before... lets not walk that path again eh?

Put simply, if Simon can lend us £5 and not bankrupt himself, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility for him to perhaps lend another £2m.

Let's be clear honest and realistic. PAFC's record of getting things done buildwise historically is pretty shocking. This is frustrating because we're missing a golden opportunity. Hey ho.

Pah, £2m? he'll probably find that down the back of the sofa. What a tight ar5e.

I'm sure if he could and wanted to then he would invest more to complete the project. However, maybe we should be happy that he has taken it upon himself to give us £5m and not always expect more.

There would be another possible option and that would be to alter course from the policy which was outlined by Mr Hallett on this site some time ago of not seeking investment, capital, call it what you will, from sources outwith the present board. Thought it was very strange at the time and even more so now when a project is put forward which seems to consist of an admittedly much needed makeover and future expansion plans which, if previous form is to go by, may well turn out to be pie in the sky. Thegrumpyloyal is right-an opportunity is being wasted to once and for all improve the infrastructure of the club commensurate with others of similar size and potential who have made massive strides forward in recent decades. Never mind, soon be time for our Sussex correspondent to come forward and suggest that wanting Argyle to make similar progress is tantamount to a Freudian cock envy syndrome.

 

[Adam R]

(For Quizmike it won't let me quote more than 6 posts)

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I do know that Stage 2 isn't costed to come in with the £5m Stage 1.

It may take a few days weeks or months for this to be confirmed, because transparency isn't a priority. It is because of that lack of transparency, that people are being duped into thinking Stage 2 is all set to go with Stage 1. It isn't. It is shiny picture propaganda.

You'll realise soon enough.

And so it came to pass.....(for QuizMike) The transcript below is from the official site.

The budget of £5m covers Stage 1 only (and does not cover the new roof and floodlight, which are being separately funded - see below). The Board currently has no agreed programme to execute Stage 2; it will proceed when it is in the interests of the Clubto do so and we have funding available.

So at last there we have it.

Now it is hardly an 'extreme view' to point out something that has proved to be 100% correct us it?

I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to since the shiny mythical Stage2 pics were rolled out, who genuinely thought Stage2 was happening. They were duped by the shiny pictures of a nice wrap-around stand.

What's sad is that yet again we aren't grasping the nettle. If the club are willing to borrow £5m over a 30 yr period, borrowing a percentage more over an extended period and getting the job done properly (Stage2) would have meant that the capacity is there ready and waiting when we get the the 2nd tier.

Instead we'll have a realistic capacity of around 17,000 at best with segregation and people locked out.

Hey ho. Janner mentality I guess.

Easy to say "why not borrow/spend more" but in reality what position is PAFC in to increase its debt levels? We are fortunate to be given £5m at a very low interest rate because its from a favourable source. Any other multimillionaire fans out there to stump up some more? They've never come forward before so the likelihood is minimal.

So say we need £2m more to do stage 2/floodlights/ roof etc, where does that come from? Will banks lend us £2m? If so at what rates and repayment schedules. Are we still seen as high risk? Will the interest costs and repayments swallow up funds that could be invested in the team just on the off-chance that we get promoted in the next 2 years?

L1 is no walk in the park... just look at the teams there now. We aren't guaranteed promotion this season, next, within the next 5.

So we could have excess capacity and costs which are not required at this stage and have no certain or even highly likely probability that they will be other than on 1/2 occasions each season.

We've borrowed beyond our means before... lets not walk that path again eh?

Put simply, if Simon can lend us £5 and not bankrupt himself, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility for him to perhaps lend another £2m.

Let's be clear honest and realistic. PAFC's record of getting things done buildwise historically is pretty shocking. This is frustrating because we're missing a golden opportunity. Hey ho.

Pah, £2m? he'll probably find that down the back of the sofa. What a tight ar5e.

I'm sure if he could and wanted to then he would invest more to complete the project. However, maybe we should be happy that he has taken it upon himself to give us £5m and not always expect more.

There would be another possible option and that would be to alter course from the policy which was outlined by Mr Hallett on this site some time ago of not seeking investment, capital, call it what you will, from sources outwith the present board. Thought it was very strange at the time and even more so now when a project is put forward which seems to consist of an admittedly much needed makeover and future expansion plans which, if previous form is to go by, may well turn out to be pie in the sky. Thegrumpyloyal is right-an opportunity is being wasted to once and for all improve the infrastructure of the club commensurate with others of similar size and potential who have made massive strides forward in recent decades. Never mind, soon be time for our Sussex correspondent to come forward and suggest that wanting Argyle to make similar progress is tantamount to a Freudian cock envy syndrome.

My post previous in the quote above stated I wasn't sure how easy it would be for Argyle to seek outside investment and at what cost. Therefore, would the annual interest payment on £2m cover and exceed the possible inflated crowds for 1 or 2 games a season. If so it isn't financially viable, the club is losing out to keep fans happy on the odd occasion they decide they want to go to HP.

I think we found out from the last lot that borrowing and the various vehicles to do so are very vague and lack transparency. Whilst the boards decision to not borrow may be holding us back in the eyes of some, it certainly keeps things a lot simpler and mitigates the risk of having Admin Vol II .

Slow and steady has been the order of the day throughout his reign - its working ok so far. This development is inkeeping with that. Update the grandstand - capacity x'000. When needed, Phase II to increase to y'000. Then when needed look at Phase III to increase to z'000.

As for Xy's cock fetish... I'll let him PM you about that!!

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

Can't be arsed to quote, but two facts for Quizmike, if you look back at our previous exchange it referred mainly to the fact you said I didn't KNOW the £5m wasn't covering Stage2. Well I did know, and now finally it's been confirmed.

Secondly, the 17,400 figure came from PL23DQ. Not from me. His estimate. Not mine.

But anyway as Jerryatric correctly points out, you'll be very lucky to get near that withthe rediculous segregation policy.

Lastly, I make no apology for my cynicism towards Brent. To clarify ( for the hundredth time for people like Davie who've been on Pasoti for 5 minutes and like to stalk my posts) that cynicism stems for the plans Brent was desperate to try and implement for HHP. School in one corner, dentist in the other, and why? Because someone else would have been paying for it and to hell with the long term implications for PAFC. A painfully small South Stand boxed in inexplicably by an ice rink. A hotel in the park, that should it fail, as many often do, what happens with the building then? Rediculous half-arsed plans for possible 5 row extension to the horseshoe that would have resulted in restricted viewing seating. Restricted views in a new build extension ffs! Totally off the scale bonkers. But that was what he had drawn up. While we're at it Starnes doesn't fill me with confidence either, as day-to-day captain of the ship, the Liverpool ticketing fiasco was beyond laughable.

So, that's where my cynicism stems from. If someone was so keen to press on with such ludicrous plans, I will ALWAYS be wary of them because in that developing regard, their judgement is about as bad as it gets.

As far as the new fella goes, I'm delighted Simon Hallett is on board. His communication with fans is excellent and yes, I'd like him to stretch to £7m instead of £5m to finish the ground, but it is still to his credit that he is actually putting his money where his mouth is.

Oh, and I'm very pleased with the Morecombe lad.

 

[davie nine]

Thanks for the explanation, Grumpy. It's time to move on with regard to James Brent.

When he tried to implement the original plans, I would suggest that he was trying to 'run before he could walk' in terms of football club ownership. I would like to think that he has learnt from his past experiences and is in a far better position to successfully complete this project and move on to stage 2 when funds are available.

I am certain that he would be the first to admit that our financial position has been strengthened by the addition of Simon Hallett to our board of directors; someone who you initially described as "savvy enough to know that once the freehold is bought the value of his shareholding will rocket overnight, particularly if a new planning permission is granted. That is why he is on board." Yes, I did 'stalk' your posts for the simple reason that I find them very frustrating and your predictions unfounded.

For the record, I may have only been on Pasoti 'for 5 minutes' but I have been a loyal supporter for over 60 years and will continue to defend the motives of the current board. I should add that I have not always been optimistic and confident of the aims and objectives of other chairmen.

 

[Kentishgreen]

I feel dreadfully let down. Someone has given my club £5 million out of the blue to refurbish the grandstand and it's going to be refurbished. What a let down! My club is no longer in debt and hopes to make a profit going forward. How many football clubs actually make a profit?

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

Thanks for the explanation, Grumpy. It's time to move on with regard to James Brent.

When he tried to implement the original plans, I would suggest that he was trying to 'run before he could walk' in terms of football club ownership. I would like to think that he has learnt from his past experiences and is in a far better position to successfully complete this project and move on to stage 2 when funds are available.

I am certain that he would be the first to admit that our financial position has been strengthened by the addition of Simon Hallett to our board of directors; someone who you initially described as "savvy enough to know that once the freehold is bought the value of his shareholding will rocket overnight, particularly if a new planning permission is granted. That is why he is on board." Yes, I did 'stalk' your posts for the simple reason that I find them very frustrating and your predictions unfounded.

For the record, I may have only been on Pasoti 'for 5 minutes' but I have been a loyal supporter for over 60 years and will continue to defend the motives of the current board. I should add that I have not always been optimistic and confident of the aims and objectives of other chairmen.

No problem Davie, a civil response.

What I would say as a cynic, is that rather than trying to run before he could walk, why would somebody with absolute zero interest in football let alone PAFC buy a football club?

Well the answer to that is quite clearly that he could see a money making opportunity. I don't have a problem with that as it goes but people like Brent don't buy failing football clubs because they are a good egg. The way in which he tried to go about implementing that money making opportunity rang massive long term alarm bells - let us not forget that ALL of the revenue from the units in his HHP mash up was going to Akkeron. Not to PAFC. Again, this is where my mistrust comes from.

The goalposts have obviously changed considerably since then, and of course Hallett coming on board is a big plus. But don't ask me to whitewash from memory the scenarios that would have had huge negative implications if Brent had got his way initially.

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

I feel dreadfully let down. Someone has given my club £5 million out of the blue to refurbish the grandstand and it's going to be refurbished. What a let down! My club is no longer in debt and hopes to make a profit going forward. How many football clubs actually make a profit?

Given £5m out of the blue? Let's not be silly.

Loaned £5m over a 30yr payback period.

 

[Biggs]

GL, James Brent had a major interest in Plymouth before buying Argyle. He was involved in the Plymouth Development Company and he is also now the chairman of the Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation. Hardly a 'moneymaking opportunity'. His argument - which I believe - is that despite not having an interest in football, he realised the importance of the club to the city. Helped by the leadership of the Argyle Fans Trust at the time.

I'm not saying he's some sort of altruistic angel, and not all of his developments have come off, but he clearly has a great passion and interest in the area beyond business, and his ownership has reflected that. The HHP scheme had flaws, but the hotels and cinema were the only way we could pay for a grandstand at the time.

I would actually say that Simon Hallett appears to be a more ruthless business oriented operator than James Brent, hopefully that's a good thing, though!

 

[Stan]

...and not all of his developments have come off...

All, or any? Hopefully with Hallett around that'll change.

 

[The Grumpy Loyal]

GL, James Brent had a major interest in Plymouth before buying Argyle. He was involved in the Plymouth Development Company and he is also now the chairman of the Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation. Hardly a 'moneymaking opportunity'. His argument - which I believe - is that despite not having an interest in football, he realised the importance of the club to the city. Helped by the leadership of the Argyle Fans Trust at the time.

I'm not saying he's some sort of altruistic angel, and not all of his developments have come off, but he clearly has a great passion and interest in the area beyond business, and his ownership has reflected that. The HHP scheme had flaws, but the hotels and cinema were the only way we could pay for a grandstand at the time.

I would actually say that Simon Hallett appears to be a more ruthless business oriented operator than James Brent, hopefully that's a good thing, though!

Agreed on the last point. But being on the Board of PDC (and how did that go?) as well as working for the D&E is a million miles away from personally buying a football club.

 

[SWTT]

I feel dreadfully let down. Someone has given my club £5 million out of the blue to refurbish the grandstand and it's going to be refurbished. What a let down! My club is no longer in debt and hopes to make a profit going forward. How many football clubs actually make a profit?

The club is in debt. You've been corrected on this before, but continue to use lie as fact. Why?

 

[KFA]

The question of is the club in debt is an area that both kentishgreen and swimwiththetide are both correct if , as I think, the difference in opinion relates to Directors Loans. These are often considered as quasi capital ( so not debt) - all depends on terms and your view. If the loan is long term with no defined/ minimal capital repayments and a low rate of interest then generally I think that's seen as quasi capital. With no "third party" debt (as far as I know) the other usually considered factor of postponement (who gets paid first in a wind up) doesn't apply to the club. So a mute point but usually better to owe a party that has an integral interest in the success of the company as likely to be most supportive type of founder if things get sticky.

 

[dennis the menace]

Bring back Kagami!?

 

[Adam R]

Bring back Kagami!?

And the mythical cheque book!