Home Park Ownership

[PL2 3DQ]

What are the pros and cons come October when Brent has the option to buy the club, will he won't he, i personally think it is nailed on that he will buy the club he already has HHP and the two must go together to have any real value, Brent holds all the aces, Hallett coming on board when he did only confirms my thoughts.

Do we want the club to go lock stock and barrel back into private hands after the last debacle when the club nearly folded can we trust Brent to do the right thing.

What is best for the football club that is the question.

Evening Mike, hope all is well with you.

I think it worth reiterating that James Brent has a perfectly legal right to buy Home Park in October and he is likely to exercise that right.

Why? Well after 5 years he will only pay what PCC paid for it 5 years ago and in the world of finance, thats a bargain. Further, as he already own HHP which has planning permission, joining the 2 adjacent properties makes good economic sense, for him. But like HHP, who will actually own HP is probably the more pertinent question. If he slots it into a company he already controls then alarm bells should start ringing. if he decides to give/sell HHP to the club then perhaps we should view it differently, whilst still maintaining a level of caution.

If HP follows HHP into a private JB company then prepare for rent increases for the club to pay.

Hallett coming on board is clearly more to do with a potential killing than altruism, in my opinion.

To "dave nine" I would say "where is your evidence that JB is shrewd?" I am even more worried by and I quote "if they decide that it is in the interests of PAFC to buy the ground, I would be confident with their decision.

I certainly do not believe that there would be any ulterior motive in buying the ground."

Jeepers whats the name of your happy pills?



COYGs

Tony, the "bargain" could have gone either way. The agreement with PCC in 2011 was a set price for L1 and L2 level at £1.62m or £135,000 a year in rent but if in the last five years we were promoted to the Championship the cost to buy Home Park would have increased to £2.43m and we would be paying annual rent of £202,000. So the threat of a rent increase has always been there.

I haven't seen anything at all over the last five years where JB has put the club at financial risk and I believe and trust him that he's not going to change. And in my limited dealings with Simon Hallett I believe the same thing - both of them would not put the club at financial risk.
There were many belt tightening initiatives that had to happen in 2011 and 2012 but since then, slowly and surely, the club has made a profit and is now starting to invest in training facilities at Harpers Park (something that has been overlooked by previous regimes) and invest in a new pitch amongst other investments.

PS: I'm not on pills.

 

[davie nine]

I am a self-confessed 'happy clapper', Tony and my opinion is based on almost 70 years in the 'University of Life' rather than the use of happy pills.

 

[signalspast]

Don't know the answer but don't think it will be linked in with one of James Brents other companies. My reasoning is that its Argyle that has got the right to purchase the ground not James himself and if its purchased and placed into one of his other companies surely that gives the other shareholders of Argyle anworm hole into his other company

 

[tonycholwell]

Akkeron Leisure Limited are the parent company of Plymouth Argyle Football Club Limited and Natatomisam are the ultimate controlling company of both. The latter two companies are jointly owned by James Brent and his wife. Akkeron Leisure Limited are a party to the 2011 lease with PCC and the Football Club. They acted as guarantor, without which the Football Club could not sign the lease agreement.

With regard to placing land and buildings into other companies within the Natatomisam group. That has already happened when HHP Nominee Ltd purchased the HHP land from the Football Club for a sum of £465,000 (the market value as ascertained by the District Valuer). James Brent is the sole Director of HHP Nominee Limited. In its latest 2014 accounts it shows assets of £224 with £24 in cash. So where is that ownership within the group now. Who paid all the fees for the ill fated HHP project? Why is it not listed as an asset in the owning company accounts? Perhaps some of the more forensic among us could answer that?

It has been stated that the rental agreement of £135,000 per annum (subject to an RPI annual increase) was a deal that could have cut both ways. Assuming we have a turnover of £4m (we don't know as the figure has never been published in any accounts) then say the current rent of around £142,000 would represents around 3.5% - a relatively small but very manageable proportion. If the club paid £202,000 if in the Championship as suggested then it would be an even smaller proportion. In the last year of Championship football the accounts showed a turnover of £8.6m. The projected rent would be 2.3% of turnover - even more manageable and the savings on paying the rent if the freehold was purchased - not even the wages of one mediocre Championship player.

So in the absence of timescale for the grandstand what are the actual reasons for buying the freehold. If it is bought in October this year the train will have left the station with no-one knowing its eventual destination. Some thought that in 2007 when the Football Club last bought the freehold and how right they were

Graham

Thank you for posting some of the very few facts that are available. I am amazed that since the data from Companies House is now free, others, including the Trust would have looked and made representations to the Club.

Of course, representations could and should be constructive, but try to ascertain what the clubs proposals are. I fear the current Trust Board are nice people but perhaps need a more focussed approach. Perhaps they need some additional experience?

Dave Nine - sorry about the happy pills I would love to have your trust in the Brent/Hallett axis, but I just can't until there is something more tangible to believe in.

 

[cheshiregreen]

Another thread with some reasoned debate a welcome flashback to this site a few years ago before the pain of administration. Although we were so unified then in our desperate desire to save our club, somehow, we often appear more divided since or at least less respectful of others opinions.

Back to the ownership. When Brent arrived as a knight on a green and white steed, I felt positive about his ambitions and aims for Argyle. We all knew the club would need time to recover from the wounds and our expectations were low. Gradually, those expectations have increased no more so than after our highly encouraging start to last season's campaign.

Reading Tony C's concerns about the rationale for ownership concerns me. Recall Tony posting his initial and positive impression of James Brent. Also respect PL2's view on JB's and SH's business acumen. Equally, Graham Clark's eloquent analysis of the various companies now involved in the running of our club.

JB's recent track record of delivery of projects (outside of PAFC) is not good.

I am no financial expert, so, for me, I don't really understand a couple of things.

1) Why can't we have transparency of the ownership of the club?
2) Why does the owner need multiple companies in relation to Argyle?

Owning Home Park - as a fan base I suspect we will have little influence on subsequent decisions, but, surely we should be advised on the future strategy if there is one . This should set out the benefits to Argyle of a new ownership arrangement. After all, we have heard a lot about the Brent Board wanting Argyle to be a Community club.

After the Gardner/Todd era surely the current Board recognises the need for reassurance as a minimum.

Edit to add - Companies House info on Natatomisam and the Company Secretary.

https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/natatomisam

Robert Huw Thomas - http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/robert-huw-thomas.

 

[dunlop]

Akkeron Leisure Limited are the parent company of Plymouth Argyle Football Club Limited and Natatomisam are the ultimate controlling company of both. The latter two companies are jointly owned by James Brent and his wife. Akkeron Leisure Limited are a party to the 2011 lease with PCC and the Football Club. They acted as guarantor, without which the Football Club could not sign the lease agreement.

With regard to placing land and buildings into other companies within the Natatomisam group. That has already happened when HHP Nominee Ltd purchased the HHP land from the Football Club for a sum of £465,000 (the market value as ascertained by the District Valuer). James Brent is the sole Director of HHP Nominee Limited. In its latest 2014 accounts it shows assets of £224 with £24 in cash. So where is that ownership within the group now. Who paid all the fees for the ill fated HHP project? Why is it not listed as an asset in the owning company accounts? Perhaps some of the more forensic among us could answer that?

It has been stated that the rental agreement of £135,000 per annum (subject to an RPI annual increase) was a deal that could have cut both ways. Assuming we have a turnover of £4m (we don't know as the figure has never been published in any accounts) then say the current rent of around £142,000 would represents around 3.5% - a relatively small but very manageable proportion. If the club paid £202,000 if in the Championship as suggested then it would be an even smaller proportion. In the last year of Championship football the accounts showed a turnover of £8.6m. The projected rent would be 2.3% of turnover - even more manageable and the savings on paying the rent if the freehold was purchased - not even the wages of one mediocre Championship player.

So in the absence of timescale for the grandstand what are the actual reasons for buying the freehold. If it is bought in October this year the train will have left the station with no-one knowing its eventual destination. Some thought that in 2007 when the Football Club last bought the freehold and how right they were

Graham

Thank you for posting some of the very few facts that are available. I am amazed that since the data from Companies House is now free, others, including the Trust would have looked and made representations to the Club.

Of course, representations could and should be constructive, but try to ascertain what the clubs proposals are. I fear the current Trust Board are nice people but perhaps need a more focussed approach. Perhaps they need some additional experience?

Dave Nine - sorry about the happy pills I would love to have your trust in the Brent/Hallett axis, but I just can't until there is something more tangible to believe in.

Hi Tony

Until we get more transparency from Brent the concerns/ fears will always be there, Graham excellent post highlites the fact we do not know where we are heading. I can't understand all the secrecy we have had two supporters groups the original GASB that was set up by JB and the AFT neither have been able to create a relationship with the board that gives comfort to the fan base that the club is the main priority, hopefully come October we may more transparency but I am not holding my breath.

Off topic slightly I went to watch Plymouth Parkway last night and was surprised at the amount of ex Argyle supporters who were there including ex directors Paul Stapleton Tony Campbell and John McNulty there were also ex season ticket holders who now follow Parkway, as per usual I had the P taken out of me because I still have my season ticket, their main concern why they gave up on going to HP was the way JB was running the club.

I realy enjoyed last night plenty of banter with ex local players good football although a bit one sided Parkway won 10 nil and with Mark Russell at the helm are making strides ro go further up the Peninsula leagues I can see them becoming more of a threat to Argyle if things at HP don't change.

 

[xmastree]

JB is a shrewd businessman who is not likely to take a catastrophic gamble in the way that our 'administration' Board did.

I feel that the addition of Simon Hallett, also very experienced in business finance, strengthens our Board and, if they decide that it is in the interests of PAFC to buy the ground, I would be confident with their decision.

I certainly do not believe that there would be any ulterior motive in buying the ground.

It depends a bit on what you mean by "ulterior motive". To me that means a hidden and not-talked-about motive. The only motive that is talked about is the benefit to the football club, but there has to be more to it than that.

Any investor in a football club will always have an eye on their eventual exit strategy. James Brent won't be any different. At an appropriate time he will want to leave Argyle, and will want to reap the benefit of his investment. Ownership of the ground will play a huge part in his plans - it gives him an asset within a structure that is short of assets. As others have said, if the ownership is placed in a nominee JB company, increased rents could be demanded from Argyle, and the ground could ultimately find itself in separate ownership from the club.

None of this is a go at Brent personally. This sort of scenario has affected many clubs. JB may have run the club with prudence, and I accept that he has become a keen fan. However when personal wealth comes into it, that usually becomes the priority with owners, however big a fan they may be, and there is a tendency to get greedy. We've seen that at Argyle with Stapleton and co.

There may or may not be an ulterior motive, but it seems naive in the extreme to dismiss something that could have profound implications in the club's future.

 

[IJN]

Off topic slightly I went to watch Plymouth Parkway last night and was surprised at the amount of ex Argyle supporters who were there including ex directors Paul Stapleton Tony Campbell and John McNulty there were also ex season ticket holders who now follow Parkway, as per usual I had the P taken out of me because I still have my season ticket, their main concern why they gave up on going to HP was the way JB was running the club.

Mike I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come on now, two of those people were involved in the biggest cluster f*** in the history of our club.

I know people have different opinions, but that one stretches anyone's imagination.

I don't believe you written that, I really don't.

Remind us all who was at the helm when it all went pear shaped and who was it that bought the Japanese in?

Dear oh dear oh dear.

** Edited to add ** I have absolutely nothing against either man.

 

[Biggs]

Is it a very silly question to ask where the £1.62m to purchase the ground, is meant to come from?

As for trusting JB, I'd have a lot more faith in him if almost all of his other projects hadn't either stalled (HHP, Pavilions) or gone disastrously wrong (Civic Centre, Oldway), not to mention his hotel business experiencing severe difficulties. Whether well-intentioned or not - I still suspect he is - Home Park and Plymouth Argyle could represent the Brent family's most significant asset.

 

[davie nine]

Akkeron Leisure Limited are the parent company of Plymouth Argyle Football Club Limited and Natatomisam are the ultimate controlling company of both. The latter two companies are jointly owned by James Brent and his wife. Akkeron Leisure Limited are a party to the 2011 lease with PCC and the Football Club. They acted as guarantor, without which the Football Club could not sign the lease agreement.

With regard to placing land and buildings into other companies within the Natatomisam group. That has already happened when HHP Nominee Ltd purchased the HHP land from the Football Club for a sum of £465,000 (the market value as ascertained by the District Valuer). James Brent is the sole Director of HHP Nominee Limited. In its latest 2014 accounts it shows assets of £224 with £24 in cash. So where is that ownership within the group now. Who paid all the fees for the ill fated HHP project? Why is it not listed as an asset in the owning company accounts? Perhaps some of the more forensic among us could answer that?

It has been stated that the rental agreement of £135,000 per annum (subject to an RPI annual increase) was a deal that could have cut both ways. Assuming we have a turnover of £4m (we don't know as the figure has never been published in any accounts) then say the current rent of around £142,000 would represents around 3.5% - a relatively small but very manageable proportion. If the club paid £202,000 if in the Championship as suggested then it would be an even smaller proportion. In the last year of Championship football the accounts showed a turnover of £8.6m. The projected rent would be 2.3% of turnover - even more manageable and the savings on paying the rent if the freehold was purchased - not even the wages of one mediocre Championship player.

So in the absence of timescale for the grandstand what are the actual reasons for buying the freehold. If it is bought in October this year the train will have left the station with no-one knowing its eventual destination. Some thought that in 2007 when the Football Club last bought the freehold and how right they were

Graham

Thank you for posting some of the very few facts that are available. I am amazed that since the data from Companies House is now free, others, including the Trust would have looked and made representations to the Club.

Of course, representations could and should be constructive, but try to ascertain what the clubs proposals are. I fear the current Trust Board are nice people but perhaps need a more focussed approach. Perhaps they need some additional experience?

Dave Nine - sorry about the happy pills I would love to have your trust in the Brent/Hallett axis, but I just can't until there is something more tangible to believe in.

Hi Tony

Until we get more transparency from Brent the concerns/ fears will always be there, Graham excellent post highlites the fact we do not know where we are heading. I can't understand all the secrecy we have had two supporters groups the original GASB that was set up by JB and the AFT neither have been able to create a relationship with the board that gives comfort to the fan base that the club is the main priority, hopefully come October we may more transparency but I am not holding my breath.

Off topic slightly I went to watch Plymouth Parkway last night and was surprised at the amount of ex Argyle supporters who were there including ex directors Paul Stapleton Tony Campbell and John McNulty there were also ex season ticket holders who now follow Parkway, as per usual I had the P taken out of me because I still have my season ticket, their main concern why they gave up on going to HP was the way JB was running the club.

I realy enjoyed last night plenty of banter with ex local players good football although a bit one sided Parkway won 10 nil and with Mark Russell at the helm are making strides ro go further up the Peninsula leagues I can see them becoming more of a threat to Argyle if things at HP don't change.

You seem to be so cynical about the Argyle ownership that it is surprising that you have not joined the exodus to Plymouth Parkway.

 

[crownhill pilgrim]

Justified cynicism, I'd say, given the history of past Chairmen... or is that your way of saying 'bugger off to another club if you're not a true believer?"

 

[davie nine]

I just don't understand the cynicism about the current Board. That's all.
I try to follow developments on this site and the local press and I have seen nothing to suspect the motives of this Board.
My confidence was boosted by the decision to allow Simon Hallett to join the Board and with his honesty and sincerity when he answered questions put by Argyle supporters.

 

[dunlop]

Off topic slightly I went to watch Plymouth Parkway last night and was surprised at the amount of ex Argyle supporters who were there including ex directors Paul Stapleton Tony Campbell and John McNulty there were also ex season ticket holders who now follow Parkway, as per usual I had the P taken out of me because I still have my season ticket, their main concern why they gave up on going to HP was the way JB was running the club.

Mike I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come on now, two of those people were involved in the biggest cluster f*** in the history of our club.

I know people have different opinions, but that one stretches anyone's imagination.

I don't believe you written that, I really don't.

Remind us all who was at the helm when it all went pear shaped and who was it that bought the Japanese in?

Dear oh dear oh dear.

** Edited to add ** I have absolutely nothing against either man.

Ian what are you on I was only pointing out who was at the game I thought it was interesting that three ex board members were at the game, can you explain what you think my thoughts are.

 

[IJN]

I thought you were suggesting that they were taking the pee. Now I've re-read it, I can see you didn't mean that.

As for micky taking I find that really sad. Why is it that when people fall out of love with their club they turn almost evangelical in their attempt to make others feel bad about sticking with it.

Mind you, we've seen this 'second club in Plymouth' thing before haven't we? Remember Plymouth City anyone?

Nothing against Parkway at all, I know there's some decent people involved, but it's all about longevity isn't it? Our City is Argyle always has been and always will be.

 

[pilgrimmike1]

Akkeron Leisure Limited are the parent company of Plymouth Argyle Football Club Limited and Natatomisam are the ultimate controlling company of both. The latter two companies are jointly owned by James Brent and his wife. Akkeron Leisure Limited are a party to the 2011 lease with PCC and the Football Club. They acted as guarantor, without which the Football Club could not sign the lease agreement.

With regard to placing land and buildings into other companies within the Natatomisam group. That has already happened when HHP Nominee Ltd purchased the HHP land from the Football Club for a sum of £465,000 (the market value as ascertained by the District Valuer). James Brent is the sole Director of HHP Nominee Limited. In its latest 2014 accounts it shows assets of £224 with £24 in cash. So where is that ownership within the group now. Who paid all the fees for the ill fated HHP project? Why is it not listed as an asset in the owning company accounts? Perhaps some of the more forensic among us could answer that?

It has been stated that the rental agreement of £135,000 per annum (subject to an RPI annual increase) was a deal that could have cut both ways. Assuming we have a turnover of £4m (we don't know as the figure has never been published in any accounts) then say the current rent of around £142,000 would represents around 3.5% - a relatively small but very manageable proportion. If the club paid £202,000 if in the Championship as suggested then it would be an even smaller proportion. In the last year of Championship football the accounts showed a turnover of £8.6m. The projected rent would be 2.3% of turnover - even more manageable and the savings on paying the rent if the freehold was purchased - not even the wages of one mediocre Championship player.

So in the absence of timescale for the grandstand what are the actual reasons for buying the freehold. If it is bought in October this year the train will have left the station with no-one knowing its eventual destination. Some thought that in 2007 when the Football Club last bought the freehold and how right they were

Graham

Thank you for posting some of the very few facts that are available. I am amazed that since the data from Companies House is now free, others, including the Trust would have looked and made representations to the Club.

Of course, representations could and should be constructive, but try to ascertain what the clubs proposals are. I fear the current Trust Board are nice people but perhaps need a more focussed approach. Perhaps they need some additional experience?

Dave Nine - sorry about the happy pills I would love to have your trust in the Brent/Hallett axis, but I just can't until there is something more tangible to believe in.

Hi Tony

Until we get more transparency from Brent the concerns/ fears will always be there, Graham excellent post highlites the fact we do not know where we are heading. I can't understand all the secrecy we have had two supporters groups the original GASB that was set up by JB and the AFT neither have been able to create a relationship with the board that gives comfort to the fan base that the club is the main priority, hopefully come October we may more transparency but I am not holding my breath.

Off topic slightly I went to watch Plymouth Parkway last night and was surprised at the amount of ex Argyle supporters who were there including ex directors Paul Stapleton Tony Campbell and John McNulty there were also ex season ticket holders who now follow Parkway, as per usual I had the P taken out of me because I still have my season ticket, their main concern why they gave up on going to HP was the way JB was running the club.

I realy enjoyed last night plenty of banter with ex local players good football although a bit one sided Parkway won 10 nil and with Mark Russell at the helm are making strides ro go further up the Peninsula leagues I can see them becoming more of a threat to Argyle if things at HP don't change.

Let them stand in block 3/4 in the Devonport spouting their crap Mike and im fairlly sure that there would be a few lads to put them straight. :thumbs: