More Talent Going to Southampton

[Lundan Cabbie]

It has been reported in the Sunday Independant that Southampton have completed the signing of defender Oliver GARDNER, who has been under Argyle since he was 12 yrs of age. Southampton first expressed an interest in him when he played in the Northern Ireland Milk Cup in July last year.

This is the third talented youngster to have been taken from us by them. What the hell is the point in us helping to fund our youngsters to go to play in the Milk Cup each year, if the best is going to be snaffled by the big boys?

We must climb the leagues and return to our rightful position, so that we have half a chance of holding on to our talented youngsters, that are found and progressed by our outstanding coaching staff.

What is the point in funding these boys, only to lose them to the mighty Southampton (or whoever else comes in for them). I wouldn't mind if we were rightfully compensated for our efforts, but the big boys are getting a bargain for peanuts, and our coaching talent is being wasted on boys who go elsewhere.

I don't blame the boys for going to a Premiership Club.

I blame the Football League for caving in to the Premiership and not getting a better deal for their League Clubs. It will only get worse, and the Clubs in the Football League will be the losers in the end.

This isn't exactly breaking news. In the summer Darren Gough mentioned on TalkSport that Southampton had taken yet another Argyle youngster (Olly Gardner) at the time when the Saints were losing older players to bigger clubs themselves.

Gardner's father Lee was a professional footballer himself so I am sure he understands what is a good move for his son and what isn't.

As for compensation to Argyle, the EPPP tables are not there to provide Argyle with what they MAY have got for him in years to come IF he had gone on and made the grade but it is compensation for what they have contributed to his progresss from ages 9-14. The EPPP formula brings in just over £30,000 for Gardner which I am sure does not leave Argyle out of pocket.

I'm not sure you are right about what is best for the kids, I would have thought playing league football at seventeen or eighteen is a lot better for them than the limited opportunities they would get in the Premier League. You may be right ,though. But in that case what is the point of any lower league club wasting their money on a youth policy, they would be far better putting what they spend on youth development into their playing budget.

This lad is 14 though. If he was 17 or 18 then he would be contracted and the big boys would have to offer a normal transfer fee negotiated and agreed by both sides.

It should be remembered that the EPPP pay-outs don't end with the £30,000 compensation for the development of the lad from ages 9-14. If he grows up to make 100 Premier League appearances for the Saints, Argyle will benefit to the tune of a further £1.3 million.

Like that will happen! Funny how he will be stuck on 99 before his new Club cashes in with a transfer to another Club, instead of paying a million quid to us!!!!

If that were the case and he only plays 99 games....... Argyle get just £1.2 million.

The money becomes due every ten appearances. £150,000 every 10 games he plays up to 60 appearances and then four payments of £100k up until he plays that 100th game.

 

[jimsing]

It has been reported in the Sunday Independant that Southampton have completed the signing of defender Oliver GARDNER, who has been under Argyle since he was 12 yrs of age. Southampton first expressed an interest in him when he played in the Northern Ireland Milk Cup in July last year.

This is the third talented youngster to have been taken from us by them. What the hell is the point in us helping to fund our youngsters to go to play in the Milk Cup each year, if the best is going to be snaffled by the big boys?

We must climb the leagues and return to our rightful position, so that we have half a chance of holding on to our talented youngsters, that are found and progressed by our outstanding coaching staff.

What is the point in funding these boys, only to lose them to the mighty Southampton (or whoever else comes in for them). I wouldn't mind if we were rightfully compensated for our efforts, but the big boys are getting a bargain for peanuts, and our coaching talent is being wasted on boys who go elsewhere.

I don't blame the boys for going to a Premiership Club.

I blame the Football League for caving in to the Premiership and not getting a better deal for their League Clubs. It will only get worse, and the Clubs in the Football League will be the losers in the end.

This isn't exactly breaking news. In the summer Darren Gough mentioned on TalkSport that Southampton had taken yet another Argyle youngster (Olly Gardner) at the time when the Saints were losing older players to bigger clubs themselves.

Gardner's father Lee was a professional footballer himself so I am sure he understands what is a good move for his son and what isn't.

As for compensation to Argyle, the EPPP tables are not there to provide Argyle with what they MAY have got for him in years to come IF he had gone on and made the grade but it is compensation for what they have contributed to his progresss from ages 9-14. The EPPP formula brings in just over £30,000 for Gardner which I am sure does not leave Argyle out of pocket.

I'm not sure you are right about what is best for the kids, I would have thought playing league football at seventeen or eighteen is a lot better for them than the limited opportunities they would get in the Premier League. You may be right ,though. But in that case what is the point of any lower league club wasting their money on a youth policy, they would be far better putting what they spend on youth development into their playing budget.

This lad is 14 though. If he was 17 or 18 then he would be contracted and the big boys would have to offer a normal transfer fee negotiated and agreed by both sides.

It should be remembered that the EPPP pay-outs don't end with the £30,000 compensation for the development of the lad from ages 9-14. If he grows up to make 100 Premier League appearances for the Saints, Argyle will benefit to the tune of a further £1.3 million.

Like that will happen! Funny how he will be stuck on 99 before his new Club cashes in with a transfer to another Club, instead of paying a million quid to us!!!!

If that were the case and he only plays 99 games....... Argyle get just £1.2 million.

The money becomes due every ten appearances. £150,000 every 10 games he plays up to 60 appearances and then four payments of £100k up until he plays that 100th game.

Very interesting, LC and very informative.

Would that also apply to Jones, who is on the verge of getting into the Liverpool first team, I wonder?

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

I think Lloyd Jones went to Liverpool the season before EPPP started. Unless the two clubs came to an agreement with regards to add ons, the details would otherwise have been decided by youth tribunal.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

Jones went to Liverpool for £20,000 while we were in administration, there was no mention of any add-ons or clauses.

 

[gaspargomez]

My own view is that the Football League clubs should collectively withdraw from the academy system. This may force a re-negotiation of the deal. It is simply not fair and just makes the disparity in football even worse. Too much bias towards the Premier League is unhealthy for the sport. As a fan (who pays money) its not what I want to see.

Many young kids do not want to leave their home areas, even at the age of 18. Argyle do not have any nearby Premier League clubs and would appeal to many talented youngsters who dont wish to leave the south west during the early stages of their careers. We also offer a realistic chance for players to appear in the first team. Unlikely to be the case at Southampton at present.

 

[Paul_Roberts]

It is frustrating losing our best young kids, but how would we feel if we signed a talented 14-year-old from, say, Weymouth? I doubt any of us would be too bothered about ensuring Weymouth were properly compensated, especially if we were obliged to pay them a significant amount every time he made 10 first- team appearances.

Ultimately it's just another reason to resent the people who engineered our financial demise. If we were still a Championship club (or better), a move to Southampton probably wouldn't be quite the pull it is now.

As an aside, Southampton have very wisely ensured they've got the entire South-west locked down from a scouting point of view. They even run the soccer schools at Millfield (the private school Reuben Reid attended), and any talented youngster in Somerset will be pounced on by their academies. Not even Yeovil or Bristol City can compete with that and they're the county clubs.

 

[memory man]

Previous posts support the fact that I do think the Football League clubs are hard-done by with this system. However, LC's drip-feeds of further information makes it slightly more palatable. And there is another side to it - allegedly. I read a newspaper article a few years ago which explained that because the PL clubs hoover up so many young players, it would mean that those who suffer rejection would come back into the system the better for it. It reasoned that the fitness levels and dietary knowledge they pick up during their time at the PL clubs would stand them in good stead for doing a decent job in the lower divisions. There are also the 'clearing-house' trial matches that take place at the end of each season, where the 'nearly made it' youngsters are put in the shop window. I think that is how we got Curtis Nelson (though Reid already knew him from his time at Stoke). I do not follow the Conference that closely but I am told that it is littered with decent young players who were deemed not quite good enough at PL level.

 

[Pafcintheplace]

Previous posts support the fact that I do think the Football League clubs are hard-done by with this system. However, LC's drip-feeds of further information makes it slightly more palatable. And there is another side to it - allegedly. I read a newspaper article a few years ago which explained that because the PL clubs hoover up so many young players, it would mean that those who suffer rejection would come back into the system the better for it. It reasoned that the fitness levels and dietary knowledge they pick up during their time at the PL clubs would stand them in good stead for doing a decent job in the lower divisions. There are also the 'clearing-house' trial matches that take place at the end of each season, where the 'nearly made it' youngsters are put in the shop window. I think that is how we got Curtis Nelson (though Reid already knew him from his time at Stoke). I do not follow the Conference that closely but I am told that it is littered with decent young players who were deemed not quite good enough at PL level.

It was Pejic who brought him to Argyle, I don't think Nelson was there during Peter Reid's time working with TP.

It's a shame Pejic got shot of Sean Morrison who looks a very decent central defender

 

[Penmaster]

It has been reported in the Sunday Independant that Southampton have completed the signing of defender Oliver GARDNER, who has been under Argyle since he was 12 yrs of age. Southampton first expressed an interest in him when he played in the Northern Ireland Milk Cup in July last year.

This is the third talented youngster to have been taken from us by them. What the hell is the point in us helping to fund our youngsters to go to play in the Milk Cup each year, if the best is going to be snaffled by the big boys?

We must climb the leagues and return to our rightful position, so that we have half a chance of holding on to our talented youngsters, that are found and progressed by our outstanding coaching staff.

What is the point in funding these boys, only to lose them to the mighty Southampton (or whoever else comes in for them). I wouldn't mind if we were rightfully compensated for our efforts, but the big boys are getting a bargain for peanuts, and our coaching talent is being wasted on boys who go elsewhere.

I don't blame the boys for going to a Premiership Club.

I blame the Football League for caving in to the Premiership and not getting a better deal for their League Clubs. It will only get worse, and the Clubs in the Football League will be the losers in the end.

This isn't exactly breaking news. In the summer Darren Gough mentioned on TalkSport that Southampton had taken yet another Argyle youngster (Olly Gardner) at the time when the Saints were losing older players to bigger clubs themselves.

Gardner's father Lee was a professional footballer himself so I am sure he understands what is a good move for his son and what isn't.

As for compensation to Argyle, the EPPP tables are not there to provide Argyle with what they MAY have got for him in years to come IF he had gone on and made the grade but it is compensation for what they have contributed to his progresss from ages 9-14. The EPPP formula brings in just over £30,000 for Gardner which I am sure does not leave Argyle out of pocket.

I'm not sure you are right about what is best for the kids, I would have thought playing league football at seventeen or eighteen is a lot better for them than the limited opportunities they would get in the Premier League. You may be right ,though. But in that case what is the point of any lower league club wasting their money on a youth policy, they would be far better putting what they spend on youth development into their playing budget.

This lad is 14 though. If he was 17 or 18 then he would be contracted and the big boys would have to offer a normal transfer fee negotiated and agreed by both sides.

It should be remembered that the EPPP pay-outs don't end with the £30,000 compensation for the development of the lad from ages 9-14. If he grows up to make 100 Premier League appearances for the Saints, Argyle will benefit to the tune of a further £1.3 million.

I didn't know that was part of the new structure and for me makes losing our young players a much easier pill to swallow.

 

[Rush Goalie]

It has been reported in the Sunday Independant that Southampton have completed the signing of defender Oliver GARDNER, who has been under Argyle since he was 12 yrs of age. Southampton first expressed an interest in him when he played in the Northern Ireland Milk Cup in July last year.

This is the third talented youngster to have been taken from us by them. What the hell is the point in us helping to fund our youngsters to go to play in the Milk Cup each year, if the best is going to be snaffled by the big boys?

We must climb the leagues and return to our rightful position, so that we have half a chance of holding on to our talented youngsters, that are found and progressed by our outstanding coaching staff.

What is the point in funding these boys, only to lose them to the mighty Southampton (or whoever else comes in for them). I wouldn't mind if we were rightfully compensated for our efforts, but the big boys are getting a bargain for peanuts, and our coaching talent is being wasted on boys who go elsewhere.

I don't blame the boys for going to a Premiership Club.

I blame the Football League for caving in to the Premiership and not getting a better deal for their League Clubs. It will only get worse, and the Clubs in the Football League will be the losers in the end.

This isn't exactly breaking news. In the summer Darren Gough mentioned on TalkSport that Southampton had taken yet another Argyle youngster (Olly Gardner) at the time when the Saints were losing older players to bigger clubs themselves.

Gardner's father Lee was a professional footballer himself so I am sure he understands what is a good move for his son and what isn't.

As for compensation to Argyle, the EPPP tables are not there to provide Argyle with what they MAY have got for him in years to come IF he had gone on and made the grade but it is compensation for what they have contributed to his progresss from ages 9-14. The EPPP formula brings in just over £30,000 for Gardner which I am sure does not leave Argyle out of pocket.

I'm not sure you are right about what is best for the kids, I would have thought playing league football at seventeen or eighteen is a lot better for them than the limited opportunities they would get in the Premier League. You may be right ,though. But in that case what is the point of any lower league club wasting their money on a youth policy, they would be far better putting what they spend on youth development into their playing budget.

This lad is 14 though. If he was 17 or 18 then he would be contracted and the big boys would have to offer a normal transfer fee negotiated and agreed by both sides.

It should be remembered that the EPPP pay-outs don't end with the £30,000 compensation for the development of the lad from ages 9-14. If he grows up to make 100 Premier League appearances for the Saints, Argyle will benefit to the tune of a further £1.3 million.

This is the main reason I'm relaxed about the EPPP. Although it's a blow to lose youngsters, going to a club like Southampton gives them a better chance of making it somewhere in the professional game. Good for the individual and Argyle do benefit at the back end, with staged payments as outlined above. Compensation without the ongoing investment cost and if a kid doesn't make it, we're not in debt.

More broadly, the reason Southampton are back where they are after being in League One with us a few seasons back is because they invested in a Premier League infrastructure years ago. Even though they sank pretty low, it enabled them to get back up there. They reaped what they sowed.

 

[memory man]

Previous posts support the fact that I do think the Football League clubs are hard-done by with this system. However, LC's drip-feeds of further information makes it slightly more palatable. And there is another side to it - allegedly. I read a newspaper article a few years ago which explained that because the PL clubs hoover up so many young players, it would mean that those who suffer rejection would come back into the system the better for it. It reasoned that the fitness levels and dietary knowledge they pick up during their time at the PL clubs would stand them in good stead for doing a decent job in the lower divisions. There are also the 'clearing-house' trial matches that take place at the end of each season, where the 'nearly made it' youngsters are put in the shop window. I think that is how we got Curtis Nelson (though Reid already knew him from his time at Stoke). I do not follow the Conference that closely but I am told that it is littered with decent young players who were deemed not quite good enough at PL level.

It was Pejic who brought him to Argyle, I don't think Nelson was there during Peter Reid's time working with TP.

It's a shame Pejic got shot of Sean Morrison who looks a very decent central defender

You may well be right there about Nelson. I am better off sticking with what I know - Johnny Newman, Wilf Carter et al!!

 

[gracie11]

The youth system is strapped for cash all the time.

Why not sign an agreement with Southampton for 5 years, (where realistically we'll be bouncing between league 2 and 1).
They get 1st choice on any of our youngsters, the EPPP set the fee anyway, so not losing anything. For that option they pay us 100-200k a year, which is a drop in the ocean to them, this makes our youth system closer to cat 2, which enables to improve even more on what's being produced at the moment.
Players they don't want, come through to the 1st team, or move to other clubs for the same set fee from the eppp.

Overall the quality will improve coming through, and Kevin Hodges and his team can focus on the job they do, not having to scratch around looking for money to improve on what the academy kids get.

Then suddenly the Greens are bouncing between the championship and league 1 as the quality has improved coming through ie into the 1st team, or are selling 3 youngsters a year which will keep Mr Brent happy, then suddenly we're buying quality to put into the team for whoever the manager will be in the future.

Sounds like a plan :scarf:

 

[esmer]

I would still very much doubt it is worth us or any lower keague club spending the estimated £300k per year it cost to run a Category 3 accadamy.

 

[gordon bennett]

Running a youth academy is, in my considered opinion, a very good long-term investment.
My understanding is that it costs approx. £400,000 per year to run a Category C academy like Argyle's.
Of that, approx. £270,000 is funded by grants from the F.A. and Premier League, leaving the club to find the other £130,000 (which is to some extent subsidised by sponsorship and donations).
Therefore, over the last two seasons the Academy has cost Argyle less than £260,000.
In that period the club will have received approx. £280,000 in transfer fees and/or compensation under the EEP as a result of Sam Gallagher and Ollie Gardner joining Southampton and Christian Walton.
So, it has been able to recruit the likes of Ben Purrington, Aaron Bentley and River Allen for nothing - and it is distinctly possible that the club could earn a significant transfer fee for at least one of these in future.
The current weak link in the set-up is the absence of regular 'Reserve Team' fixtures. If the club had invested an extra £50,000 in employing a full-time Reserve Team Coach (with no first team duties) and playing Reserve games, to provide extra training, coaching and matches for the players aged 18-21, it would have quickly gained a return on the investment by keeping match-fit and polishing up players like Luke Young, Jamie Richards and Tyler Harvey so they would be properly equipped to step up to first team duty when required. It would also accelerate the development of the better under-18's. Finally, and perhaps most important, it would make possible moves to clubs like Southampton less attractive to players and parents.

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

I understand where you are coming from Gordon but who would this reserve team play? Surely the next step up is to introduce an Under 21 level at HP. Players are still developing after they turn 18 but there seems to be a void for these kids unless they are already good enough for the first team.