Paul Wotton to equal Sammy Black's record?

[jerryatricjanner]

It's the record for being in second place of course!

One thing to bear in mind: Sammy's 491 appearances were all in the starting line-up (naturally in those days). Wottsy's total includes 41 substitute appearances.

An appearance is an appearance, whether from the start or as a sub. Back in pre-substitute days if a player got so injured that he couldn't continue he would simply go off and the team would go down to ten men. You will struggle to find records of when this might have happened though. There is no guarantee that Sammy Black finished every one of his 491 starts.

Don't quite follow your logic Lundan. In the old days if Wotton wasn't in the starting eleven as is the case in 41 of his appearances then his tally would be 448 not 489, whereas Black's figure would remain unchanged. The average substitute appearance is probably 20 minutes, or less in most cases. Black would have finished virtually every game he started. I'm not belittling what is a great achievement by Wotton but we are not comparing like for like with him and Black. It's like saying our average gates are 7,400 or whatever this season when in years past they would have registered at less than 7,000 with all the non attending season ticket holders not included.

 

[GreenSam]

I'd give him another year. When he covered as a centre-back away to Dagenham I felt ten times more safe with him as the 'dominant CB' than I normally do with Trotman playing that role.

He's obviously limited. Who isn't when they're approaching 37- but I think even now he puts some of our pros in their 'prime' to shame. He's worth 12 more months as a squad option for me. I genuinely think he could play on at some level or other till he's 40 or more. He can just cover the same 20 yards all game and still do his role excellently.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

1: Kevin Hodges - starts 586, sub 34, total 620.
2: Sammy Black - starts 491, sub 0, total 491.
3: Paul Wotton - starts 448, sub 41, total 489.

Thanks to GOS.

 

[loyal1970]

LEGEND

 

[UncleBuck]

As a relatively recent convert to Argyle (Holloway era) I don't have quite the same nostalgic love for Wotton and so I judge him purely on what I've seen since those days. Sorry to say but being brutally honest I think he is poor quality. On the pitch I think he is poor and has been since the Championship days. When he signed for Southampton they soon sussed it out and shipped him on and he's never become established anywhere else.
He is very vocal on the pitch but not in a good way, my opinion only. If I were a young skillful player trying to establish my place and show what I can do then I'd be feeling most put out by having some gob on a stick hollering at me the whole time when he's a liability himself.
As for management or coaching? I've not seen any evidence that says I'd want to install his style and brand of football at my club. What does he know of modern passing football? He is a product of lower league hoof years.
All that said he is Mr Argyle and a local boy but a Steven Gerrard he is not.

 

[James Owen]

Another one year contract for me.

 

[Keepitgreen]

Wotton has been a great servant and I think he can do one more year.

I'm not sure we should be pushing him into management though. What evidence do we have that he'd be any good?

He's already started doing his coaching badges (hence his pep talks before matches) so he wants to be part of a set up in the game. Could be as coach or manager.

 

[PilgrimJosh]

Would call it a day at the end of this season.

He's not good at all, he's a voice on the pitch (well if you call blaming everyone for different things a vocal presence) but his distribution is abysmal, can't pass, poor with the ball at his feet and I'd be surprised if he was any good in a dead ball situation.

Hope he makes it but for his sake rather than that I think it would aid the team.

 

[memory man]

It's the record for being in second place of course!

One thing to bear in mind: Sammy's 491 appearances were all in the starting line-up (naturally in those days). Wottsy's total includes 41 substitute appearances.

An appearance is an appearance, whether from the start or as a sub. Back in pre-substitute days if a player got so injured that he couldn't continue he would simply go off and the team would go down to ten men. You will struggle to find records of when this might have happened though. There is no guarantee that Sammy Black finished every one of his 491 starts.

From the 60 or so players I have interviewed from the late 50s and early 60s, it was clear that it had to be a broken limb or an extremely serious injury before they would stay off. Sprains, bad muscle injuries and even concussion didn't warrant staying off in those days. Cuts were stitched on the touchline. The outstanding example that I learned about involved a chap called Eric Doughty. In the 30th minute of a game at Hull City, on 23 August 1958, Eric's studs got caught up with the Hull centre-forward's studs. His leg was twisted around almost 360 degrees and he ruptured both cruciate and anterior ligaments. He was taken off the field and after the knee was doused with cold water it was bandaged. Eric went out for the second half and hobbled about on the right wing. "I was told to help George Robertson to contain Arthur Metcalfe, Hull's former international left winger.The lads told me I was a great help." When I asked Eric why on earth he didn't say "I cannot walk, I cannot go back" he gave me a real glare. "You do not understand, it was my duty to my team-mates". Unfortunately Eric, who was making his debut that day, never played for the first team again. After an unequal 2 year struggle during which he played a few reserve and SWL matches, he tried his luck with Bristol City. He failed to survive the pre-season training and never played again. Sorry to go on, but it remains the most humbling interview I have ever conducted.

 

[Gary Wills]

Very shortsighted approach back then, agreed.

 

[memory man]

As a relatively recent convert to Argyle (Holloway era) I don't have quite the same nostalgic love for Wotton and so I judge him purely on what I've seen since those days. Sorry to say but being brutally honest I think he is poor quality. On the pitch I think he is poor and has been since the Championship days. When he signed for Southampton they soon sussed it out and shipped him on and he's never become established anywhere else.
He is very vocal on the pitch but not in a good way, my opinion only. If I were a young skillful player trying to establish my place and show what I can do then I'd be feeling most put out by having some gob on a stick hollering at me the whole time when he's a liability himself.
As for management or coaching? I've not seen any evidence that says I'd want to install his style and brand of football at my club. What does he know of modern passing football? He is a product of lower league hoof years.
All that said he is Mr Argyle and a local boy but a Steven Gerrard he is not.

It is a game of opinions and I agree 110% with yours on this. I think it is a properly considered view, extremely well presented.

 

[StevePAFC]

If we can bring in Lee Cox then it would be time to say bye to Wotton for me, still a legend though and hopefully when he does go he'll still have a role somewhere in the club.

 

[PL2 3DQ]

As a relatively recent convert to Argyle (Holloway era) I don't have quite the same nostalgic love for Wotton and so I judge him purely on what I've seen since those days. Sorry to say but being brutally honest I think he is poor quality. On the pitch I think he is poor and has been since the Championship days. When he signed for Southampton they soon sussed it out and shipped him on and he's never become established anywhere else.
He is very vocal on the pitch but not in a good way, my opinion only. If I were a young skillful player trying to establish my place and show what I can do then I'd be feeling most put out by having some gob on a stick hollering at me the whole time when he's a liability himself.
As for management or coaching? I've not seen any evidence that says I'd want to install his style and brand of football at my club. What does he know of modern passing football? He is a product of lower league hoof years.
All that said he is Mr Argyle and a local boy but a Steven Gerrard he is not.

It is a game of opinions and I agree 110% with yours on this. I think it is a properly considered view, extremely well presented.

A pity. The intention of this thread was to highlight the fantastic achievement that Paul Wotton is just two games away from equalling the legendary Sammy Black and three games away from going second on the all time appearance list for Argyle.

The club have a nice article on the official website.....

http://www.pafc.co.uk/news/article/seni ... 92335.aspx

 

[Pogleswoody]

It's worth pointing out that if Paul Wotton plays a part in the two Easter games against Bury and Wimbledon he will equal Sammy Black's record of 491 appearances for PAFC. :clap:

With four games to go in the regular season and with Wotton out of contract this summer let's hope we witness history in the making and Wottsie plays in at least three of those games to become Argyle's second all-time appearance holder behind Kevin Hodges.

Sammy Black's record has stood for 76 years.

How can Sammy Black's record have stood for 76 years if it was beaten by Kevin Hodges?

Pedantic but a fair point.

"In the 76 years since Black set his appearance record only one player has overhauled his tally, Paul Wotton could be the second player to surpass Sammy's total"
Is that unpedantic enough for you? :doh:

 

[mercedes]

Yes, Paul is a 'legend', and I fully support his achievements. I am old, and have been supporting the Greens since the late 1950s,
but not old enough to have witnessed Sammy Black's achievements - however, I look back and consider that Sammy's record is incredible. What a player he must have been. We would all love to see his like today......................................................