WMN interview with James Brent (23rd November)

[IJN]

Just don't agree sorry, not if we have ambitions higher than faffing about in the middle-reaches of the Championship. I know I keep harping on about Swansea but they will have missed out on 5000-10000 extra bums on seats x 19 games x 4 seasons which is an awful lot of money. The trouble is once any expansion is finally built, you may have already missed out should you only spend a season or two in the top league. It's a difficult one for sure.

We agree to differ.

I would love to be faffing about in the middle reaches of the Championship.

In my opinion unless we went into the Championship and had a play off finish or near play off finish, and then promotion to the Promise Land on the second, the apathetic Plymouth public would once again moan about the price of pasties and get bored with playing QPR, Norwich and Bournemouth.

It's what us Janners have always done and not following that route of quick promotion is what Argyle have always done.

 

[Baby Face Johnson]

Just don't agree sorry, not if we have ambitions higher than faffing about in the middle-reaches of the Championship. I know I keep harping on about Swansea but they will have missed out on 5000-10000 extra bums on seats x 19 games x 4 seasons which is an awful lot of money. The trouble is once any expansion is finally built, you may have already missed out should you only spend a season or two in the top league. It's a difficult one for sure.

We agree to differ.

I would love to be faffing about in the middle reaches of the Championship.

In my opinion unless we went into the Championship and had a play off finish or near play off finish, and then promotion to the Promise Land on the second, the apathetic Plymouth public would once again moan about the price of pasties and get bored with playing QPR, Norwich and Bournemouth.

It's what us Janners have always done and not following that route of quick promotion is what Argyle have always done.

We need to change the apathetic mindset of the average Janner Ian, or 'twill ever be thus.

 

[Ollieargyle9]

Just don't agree sorry, not if we have ambitions higher than faffing about in the middle-reaches of the Championship. I know I keep harping on about Swansea but they will have missed out on 5000-10000 extra bums on seats x 19 games x 4 seasons which is an awful lot of money. The trouble is once any expansion is finally built, you may have already missed out should you only spend a season or two in the top league. It's a difficult one for sure.

We agree to differ.

I would love to be faffing about in the middle reaches of the Championship.

In my opinion unless we went into the Championship and had a play off finish or near play off finish, and then promotion to the Promise Land on the second, the apathetic Plymouth public would once again moan about the price of pasties and get bored with playing QPR, Norwich and Bournemouth.

It's what us Janners have always done and not following that route of quick promotion is what Argyle have always done.

We need to change the apathetic mindset of the average Janner Ian, or 'twill ever be thus.

I think it would be quicker and far more realistic if we all set up a business and hoped to make a lot of cash to plough into Argyle. The janner mentality ain't changing not for a long old while.

 

[Greenskin]

2004-05 3 x 20,000 plus crowds. Leeds 20555 on a Tuesday night and West Ham 20220 on a Saturday. In the Third Round of the FA Cup we had Everton who stood 4th in the Premier League, 5 points clear of Liverpool in 5th place. We could only attract 20112. Since then there has been just one 20000 plus crowd, in 2006-07 for the Watford 6th round FA Cup tie. The average crowds for the most recent championship seasons were 16419, 13776, 13011, 13000, 11533 and 10314. I know the capacity was cut to 18500 at some stage but even that looks plenty in this day and age. The two Manchester clubs and perhaps Spurs and Liverpool would attract large crowds for a home cup tie, but if you balance the extra receipts against building costs then it is a no brainer to go for something affordable that suits us every week and not just once in a while. The days of 20000+ week in week out are gone.

They certainly aren't gone at clubs like Cardiff, Hull or Swansea and they wouldn't be gone at Home park should Argyle enjoy the same level of success as those clubs, who without exception started out from fanbases similar to or worse than Argyle's current one.

You make a very good point, one that is difficult to argue with. Indeed, I would be as pleased as the next man to be proved wrong. Perhaps I just cannot get away from the historical facts, most specifically the lack of decent support towards the end of 1961-62 campaign when we were winning almost every week and were third in what is now the championship. Nationally more people were inclined to go to games then than do now and yet we still could not get the people through the turnstile.

I may have raised this before but a very interesting comparison with Southampton for that season and the previous one;

1960/61 Argyle 11th in division 2 average attendance 17613
Southampton 8th in division 2 average attendance 18865

1961/62 Argyle 5th in division 2 average attendance 13998
Southampton 6th in division 2 average attendance 13763

Even more weirdly,both clubs finished in bang mid table the following season,yet the gates of the two clubs went up by 2000 per match even though the respective league positions were considerably worse! I thought about the blizzards being a contributary factor to these apparent aberrations but i think they came later,slightly before my time.Whatever,it sure didn't stop Southampton from making progress and becoming the force that they are now and basically have been since 1966.

 

[IJN]

I don't know the answer Mr Skin but what are they getting now?

Every time I see them on MotD, St Mary's looks like a poor man's Stadium of Light.

Imagine Argyle if we ever had a team as good as they have now.

Mind you, complaints about peas in the pasties would still be on here. :greensmile:

 

[Baby Face Johnson]

Just don't agree sorry, not if we have ambitions higher than faffing about in the middle-reaches of the Championship. I know I keep harping on about Swansea but they will have missed out on 5000-10000 extra bums on seats x 19 games x 4 seasons which is an awful lot of money. The trouble is once any expansion is finally built, you may have already missed out should you only spend a season or two in the top league. It's a difficult one for sure.

We agree to differ.

I would love to be faffing about in the middle reaches of the Championship.

In my opinion unless we went into the Championship and had a play off finish or near play off finish, and then promotion to the Promise Land on the second, the apathetic Plymouth public would once again moan about the price of pasties and get bored with playing QPR, Norwich and Bournemouth.

It's what us Janners have always done and not following that route of quick promotion is what Argyle have always done.

We need to change the apathetic mindset of the average Janner Ian, or 'twill ever be thus.

I think it would be quicker and far more realistic if we all set up a business and hoped to make a lot of cash to plough into Argyle. The janner mentality ain't changing not for a long old while.

Sadly it's not likely to either if we are aspiring to build a new stand which reduces our capacity (if we returned the Mayflower to seating) by some 3000. What message does that send out to the type of fans we need to be attracting. They are laughing at us from their Sky armchairs and pubs.

 

[IJN]

More like 'They are still laughing at us from Sky armchairs and pubs'.

Strange isn't it, so many (including our Chairman) are chasing that demographic.

I personally, in many ways, hope they stay behind their remote controls, but again, that's just me.

 

[Baby Face Johnson]

More like 'They are still laughing at us from Sky armchairs and pubs'.

Strange isn't it, so many (including our Chairman) are chasing that demographic.

I personally, in many ways, hope they stay behind their remote controls, but again, that's just me.

We will need them for sure if we ever have dreams of being an established Premiership club and a lot will come for sure, some might even stay. The alternative is to remain a tin-pot club kicking around the lower reaches with the odd, brief foray into the Championship. Which is preferable?

 

[IJN]

Before admin that would have been daft question, after it, I'm not so sure.

I just prey for a Sugar Daddy. Then we'd all be happy. But having to depend on the Plymouth public to turn up, in their numbers, through thick and thin? It aint going to happen is it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, thank God for the Cornish.

 

[Baby Face Johnson]

To be fair, I'm not sure we would maintain the level of support in Div 4, after a stint in the Premiership, such as a Pompey or a Norwich enjoyed, so perhaps you are right there. However, without some ambition from the movers and shakers in Plymouth (and that applies to everything, not just Argyle) we are never going to find out.

 

[Adam R]

I imagine if we got to the 'promised land' the gate revenue would pale into insignificance when you see the TV revenue those top 20 teams can generate.

Based on the Swansea example above (not picking on anyone but they have done the start of the maths for me!). 5,000 seats per game (assuming they sold out) x £35 (£30 ticket + £5 spending) x 19 games = c.£3.3M Thats a drop in the ocean for most premier leage clubs (even little old Argyle if we got there).


Sorry to turn all "accounting" on your asses, but it would be interesting to see the how muich of the gate revenue is left after the match day costs have been subtracted. I imagine its tough to assign a true "cost per seat" to match days, but there must be stepped costs (policing/stewarding for example) that would also increase witth he attendance. Anyone done any analysis of this before?

Edited: Cardiff apparently pulled in £62m for getting relegated!

 

[Greenskin]

I don't know the answer Mr Skin but what are they getting now?

Every time I see them on MotD, St Mary's looks like a poor man's Stadium of Light.

Imagine Argyle if we ever had a team as good as they have now.

Mind you, complaints about peas in the pasties would still be on here. :greensmile:

I don't especially like St Mary's [or Leicester, Coventry,etc for that matter] but the point is that, aesthetically numbing and soulless that they seem to be, there isn't a doubt that they are fit for purpose as far as maximising revenue from seating and other sources goes, which has to be the crucial point when judging the real value of any given facility. Maybe there is a compromise-I quite liked Pride Park and Wolves,WBA etc have shown that it's quite possible to have the best of both worlds, a ground which retains it's atmosphere as well as being more than adequate to meet other necessities. And I've often imagined Argyle with as good a team as Saints but imagination is as far as it went unfortunately. If Argyle were in their position with a stadium to match, then I would think the gates would be very similar or possibly bigger, which really dovetails with the arguments propounded by myself over the years .I've never argued that the Plymouth public aren't apathetic and fickle towards the club-they certainly are but my point is that the lack of success over generation after generation has caused that apathy- all of the broken promises, the sale of so many talents and the failure to build around them which actually provides a stark contrast to Southampton and many other clubs who have bypassed us over the years. One thing is for sure-if Argyle reach the second tier again, which I fervently hope they will in the not too distant future, and are inadequately financed to maintain the momentum [resulting in successive relegation battles as was the case last time], then exactly the same cycle will kick in, no matter if we like it or not. That has to be the challenge facing James Brent or whoever happens to be the proprietor/directors of the day, lets hope that they are better equipped to make a fist of it than previous incumbents.

And the pasties are bleddy atrocious, wouldn't feed my imaginary dog with them.

 

[IJN]

I don't think we are disagreeing that much if I'm honest.

By the way West Brom is a proper ground, old school yet modernised, lovely ground.

 

[Baby Face Johnson]

I imagine if we got to the 'promised land' the gate revenue would pale into insignificance when you see the TV revenue those top 20 teams can generate.

Based on the Swansea example above (not picking on anyone but they have done the start of the maths for me!). 5,000 seats per game (assuming they sold out) x £35 (£30 ticket + £5 spending) x 19 games = c.£3.3M Thats a drop in the ocean for most premier leage clubs (even little old Argyle if we got there).


Sorry to turn all "accounting" on your asses, but it would be interesting to see the how muich of the gate revenue is left after the match day costs have been subtracted. I imagine its tough to assign a true "cost per seat" to match days, but there must be stepped costs (policing/stewarding for example) that would also increase witth he attendance. Anyone done any analysis of this before?

Edited: Cardiff apparently pulled in £62m for getting relegated!

Swansea's initial proposals were to increase the capacity to 33000 from 20000 ish but I take your reasoning up to a point. What I would have to ask you is why are some of the top clubs in the Premiership such as Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool all looking to increase their capacities, if it doesn't make any difference?

 

[memory man]

2004-05 3 x 20,000 plus crowds. Leeds 20555 on a Tuesday night and West Ham 20220 on a Saturday. In the Third Round of the FA Cup we had Everton who stood 4th in the Premier League, 5 points clear of Liverpool in 5th place. We could only attract 20112. Since then there has been just one 20000 plus crowd, in 2006-07 for the Watford 6th round FA Cup tie. The average crowds for the most recent championship seasons were 16419, 13776, 13011, 13000, 11533 and 10314. I know the capacity was cut to 18500 at some stage but even that looks plenty in this day and age. The two Manchester clubs and perhaps Spurs and Liverpool would attract large crowds for a home cup tie, but if you balance the extra receipts against building costs then it is a no brainer to go for something affordable that suits us every week and not just once in a while. The days of 20000+ week in week out are gone.

They certainly aren't gone at clubs like Cardiff, Hull or Swansea and they wouldn't be gone at Home park should Argyle enjoy the same level of success as those clubs, who without exception started out from fanbases similar to or worse than Argyle's current one.

You make a very good point, one that is difficult to argue with. Indeed, I would be as pleased as the next man to be proved wrong. Perhaps I just cannot get away from the historical facts, most specifically the lack of decent support towards the end of 1961-62 campaign when we were winning almost every week and were third in what is now the championship. Nationally more people were inclined to go to games then than do now and yet we still could not get the people through the turnstile.

I may have raised this before but a very interesting comparison with Southampton for that season and the previous one;

1960/61 Argyle 11th in division 2 average attendance 17613
Southampton 8th in division 2 average attendance 18865

1961/62 Argyle 5th in division 2 average attendance 13998
Southampton 6th in division 2 average attendance 13763

Even more weirdly,both clubs finished in bang mid table the following season,yet the gates of the two clubs went up by 2000 per match even though the respective league positions were considerably worse! I thought about the blizzards being a contributary factor to these apparent aberrations but i think they came later,slightly before my time.Whatever,it sure didn't stop Southampton from making progress and becoming the force that they are now and basically have been since 1966.

The blizzards did indeed come the following season, starting in late December 1962 and then there was't a day until March with no snow on the ground somewhere in Britain. Argyle went into the blizzard in 3rd place, playing even better than the 61/62 season. There were 3 x 20000 plus gates before Christmas. On 26 Dec they beat Cardiff 4-2 on an ice-rink in front of 18602 but Cornwall and North Devon were virtually cut-off with roads blocked and few if any trains. That probably accounted for another 6000 who would have come. Nearly 22000 came for another skating match against WBA in the FA Cup on 5 Jan 63. Again travel was difficult from outside the city. I watched the game from the top of a pile of snow which covered the front of the Mayflower Terracing (then known as the Enclosure). We lost 5-1 and our centre forward Alex Jackson broke his leg. From then on they couldn't buy a win, taking maximum points in only 3 of the final 18 games. Argyle still played every home game on the scheduled date whereas other teams weren't playing for 6 weeks in a row. I firmly believe it was the beginning of a 53 year slide that has only been occasionally halted. Meanwhile, Southampton reached the FA Cup semi final that year, aided by their centre forward George Kirby, who we had sold to them in September 1962 - when we were top of the league. Perhaps the Cup run may have forced their average up? Although crowds went down at HP when we were losing most games, a visit in March from Stanley Matthews and Stoke City drew 22056. Going off topic further still, on Good Friday we pulled in 18207 for a home game with Southampton. It should have been 18209 but one man who brought his father down from Hampshire for a 3pm kick off and was disappointed to find it had started at 12!!! It was a memorable day for Mike Trebilcock who made a scoring debut.