Liverpool

[bathpilgrim]

Utd have always been bigger in Europe and the world thanks Busby Babes and sadly the Munich Air Crash ,Best Law and Sir Bobby Charlton and Beckham and Ronaldo

Well, go on believing that if it makes you happy, but it's complete b*llocks! :funny:

Liverpool are far bigger on the continent, as you'd know if you had any contact with European fans. They tend to judge teams not by all the media hype and crap (so Beckham doesn't even enter into the equation! :roll: ) but by success in the European trophies.....

And thats in the Champions League/European Cup:- Liverpool 5, Mancs 3

The other Competitions (Cup Winners Cup, UEFA Cup) Liverpool 3 Mancs 1

or 8-4 in total!

Liverpool's real period of impact was 1976 -81 when they won four trophies including 3 European Cups in just six seasons. (When have the mancs ever had a period of domination like that?)

Anfield is acknowledged throughout Europe as one of the legendary European stadiums. Old Trafford has never had that status. "You'll Never Walk Alone" is known throughout the continent. (And the manc song is? :roll: )

The "Busby Babes" thing and the Munich air tragedy definitely raised the profile of the mancs in this country, but much less so in Europe, where there have been other and even more severe air disasters. (Which we in this country seem remarkably ignorant of) For example the entire Torino team and all officials died in one terrible tragedy in which everybody on board the aircraft was killed.
That is not in any way to suggest Munich was not a terrible tragedy (of course it was) but it does not have quite the same significance for the Europeans as it does for us in this country.

There is no doubt that the mancs are a famous name in Europe. But they're like Roma or Valencia, whereas Liverpool are more like AC Milan or Barcelona! Just a step up in class, fame and achievement. :wave:

Does this mean that Nottingham Forest are a bigger club on the continent then say Arsenal, Chelsea or even Man Utd because of their period of domination in the European Cup then ?

 

[jerryatricjanner]

May as well add Villa to Forest as well. Jonesy I can only speak as I find and 11 years living over here, United are the most talked about club by non English fans, followed by Chelsea and Arsenal at present. A whole generation of fans under 30 to 35 would know little about Liverpool's former glories or at least wouldn't have been footy fans during that period. My interest in football began in the early 60's. I remember reading in Football Monthly about the great Arsenal team of the 30's, the Huddersfield team and so on but at school in those days all the talk was mainly Man United, Spurs and Liverpool. Today it is probably Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. I agree in the older generations Liverpool would still be highly thought of throughout Europe. My point was made more for the fact that the Champions League is much harder to win than the old European Cup which is why you don't see teams winning consecutively now like Madrid did 5 times, Ajax and Bayern 3 times and lots of teams twice in a row.

 

[bathpilgrim]

May as well add Villa to Forest as well. Jonesy I can only speak as I find and 11 years living over here, United are the most talked about club by non English fans, followed by Chelsea and Arsenal at present. A whole generation of fans under 30 to 35 would know little about Liverpool's former glories or at least wouldn't have been footy fans during that period. My interest in football began in the early 60's. I remember reading in Football Monthly about the great Arsenal team of the 30's, the Huddersfield team and so on but at school in those days all the talk was mainly Man United, Spurs and Liverpool. Today it is probably Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. I agree in the older generations Liverpool would still be highly thought of throughout Europe. My point was made more for the fact that the Champions League is much harder to win than the old European Cup which is why you don't see teams winning consecutively now like Madrid did 5 times, Ajax and Bayern 3 times and lots of teams twice in a row.

Hmm, I think it would be stretching it to call Villa's win a 'period of domination' in the European Cup, but I take your point.

There are adults now in this country who weren't alive when Liverpool last won the league so not particulalry surprised that there are a whole generation of football fans who put them on a level with Porto or Borussia Dortmund,

 

[Plympton Pong]

I'm not a keen fan of the Scousers at all but Liverpool have won the Champions League in the last 7 years as well as picking up a runners up medal too.
They also won the UEFA Cup in 2001. Its not a bad record really is it?

 

[bathpilgrim]

I'm not a keen fan of the Scousers at all but Liverpool have won the Champions League in the last 7 years as well as picking up a runners up medal too.
They also won the UEFA Cup in 2001. Its not a bad record really is it?

Absolutely agree, it's an excellent record. But the same as Porto.

 

[Stuart_C]

There are adults now in this country who weren't alive when Liverpool last won the league so not particulalry surprised that there are a whole generation of football fans who put them on a level with Porto or Borussia Dortmund,

it will be funny (still sad) on saturday lunchtime seeing the age split between the plastic scousers and gooners.

Can't wait to spot my first ManYoo fan with a child in tow sporting a Balotelli shirt.

 

[Brixton 'ill Pilgrim]

I was in Poland a few years ago, having a bizarre conversation with a taxi driver (in broken, GCSE-level French.... the Communists had sent him to Paris as some sort of student organiser in his youth). He was a big football fan, and wanted to know why the England team was so poo, even though we had great clubs such as "Manchester, Arsenal and Ipswich"

 

[NorfolkGreen]

There are adults now in this country who weren't alive when Liverpool last won the league so not particulalry surprised that there are a whole generation of football fans who put them on a level with Porto or Borussia Dortmund,

it will be funny (still sad) on saturday lunchtime seeing the age split between the plastic scousers and gooners.

Can't wait to spot my first ManYoo fan with a child in tow sporting a Balotelli shirt.

That will never happen!

 

[bathpilgrim]

I was in Poland a few years ago, having a bizarre conversation with a taxi driver (in broken, GCSE-level French.... the Communists had sent him to Paris as some sort of student organiser in his youth). He was a big football fan, and wanted to know why the England team was so cack, even though we had great clubs such as "Manchester, Arsenal and Ipswich"

Great story.

When I was in Japan in 2002 every single Japanese kid had an England shirt with either Beckham or Owen on the back or a Man Utd or Liverpool shirt. Everywhere you went there were Japanese Beckhams & Owens and Japanese England fans. I saw literally thousands over the course of the 3 weeks that I was there......that was until the night that I was walking out of the stadium after beating Argentina, a night of my life I will never forget, that embodied everything I love about football, and what did I see - a Japanese guy in his early twenties wearing an Argyle shirt with the legend Heathcoate on the back. I am not making this up.

 

[Jones the Green]

Does this mean that Nottingham Forest are a bigger club on the continent then say Arsenal, Chelsea or even Man Utd because of their period of domination in the European Cup then ?

Clearly, bp, it depends on what you use as your measures! Or, how you slice the cake determines what you are given to eat !

(which is one reason why I am always so suspicious of those beloved statistics of yours!)

If you chose the very simple scale that the teams who have won the European Cup the most are the biggest, then yes, Forest are bigger than Arsenal and Chelsea. And so are Villa. But not Man U, who have won it three times to Forest's two amd Villa's one.

Clearly, some will say that is far too simplistic a criteria, and the measure should instead emphasise current form and recent success, as opposed to the overall historical record.

By that criteria, Barcelona are clearly the biggest club in Europe.

Ah, but are they? Are they really? I don't think even the most passionate cule would yet claim that Barca have already surpassed Real Madrid in terms of reputation, fame and glory. They would admit they still have some way to go. And I say that as someone who has always loved Barca and loathed Madrid.

So it would appear to be a COMBINATION of the two;- past glories and current strengths.....

And thus the arguments start, because you will never get agreement on how much emphasis to place on which criteria! :roll:

Personally, (and I am actually being serious here!) I don't think Manchester United have as big a reputation in Europe as their fans fondly think, because they continually fail in the Champions League. Sure,they're there every year, but they have only won it twice after reaching the knock-out rounds virtually every season. (I believe this season is the first time they have ever been in the UEFA Cup/Europa League. ) That's a hell of a lot of failures in the knock-out rounds.

Granted their record is better than Arsenal and Chelsea, who managed to cock it up EVERY YEAR! :lol:

And I think even Ferguson acknowledges that the mancs should have won it a lot more often, and he has expressed himself jealous of Liverpool's European Cup record.

Case rests!

 

[Stuart_C]

There are adults now in this country who weren't alive when Liverpool last won the league so not particulalry surprised that there are a whole generation of football fans who put them on a level with Porto or Borussia Dortmund,

it will be funny (still sad) on saturday lunchtime seeing the age split between the plastic scousers and gooners.

Can't wait to spot my first ManYoo fan with a child in tow sporting a Balotelli shirt.

That will never happen!

Seen plastic scousers with young ManYoo and Chelski-ites in tow.
Power of Sky and playground peer group pressure will see it happen.

 

[NorfolkGreen]

There are adults now in this country who weren't alive when Liverpool last won the league so not particulalry surprised that there are a whole generation of football fans who put them on a level with Porto or Borussia Dortmund,

it will be funny (still sad) on saturday lunchtime seeing the age split between the plastic scousers and gooners.

Can't wait to spot my first ManYoo fan with a child in tow sporting a Balotelli shirt.

That will never happen!

Seen plastic scousers with young ManYoo and Chelski-ites in tow.
Power of Sky and playground peer group pressure will see it happen.

I meant a Man U fan letting their child have a Man City players shirt on.

 

[bringonthemilkman]

I've also got mates in Europe and my mates support a bigger team than your mates. Real Madrid have won more European Cups than anyone else, they have the biggest turnover of any club in the world, the most expensively acquired squad, the best stadium and, without exception, all my mates believe 'El Manchester' are bigger than Liverpool. When Old Trafford gave fat Ronaldo a standing ovation for scoring a hat-trick against them that just confirmed their views that United are the only English club worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as their own club. !Hala madriz!
What are your mates going to say about that?

 

[bathpilgrim]

Does this mean that Nottingham Forest are a bigger club on the continent then say Arsenal, Chelsea or even Man Utd because of their period of domination in the European Cup then ?

Clearly, bp, it depends on what you use as your measures! Or, how you slice the cake determines what you are given to eat !

(which is one reason why I am always so suspicious of those beloved statistics of yours!)

If you chose the very simple scale that the teams who have won the European Cup the most are the biggest, then yes, Forest are bigger than Arsenal and Chelsea. And so are Villa. But not Man U, who have won it three times to Forest's two amd Villa's one.

Clearly, some will say that is far too simplistic a criteria, and the measure should instead emphasise current form and recent success, as opposed to the overall historical record.

By that criteria, Barcelona are clearly the biggest club in Europe.

Ah, but are they? Are they really? I don't think even the most passionate cule would yet claim that Barca have already surpassed Real Madrid in terms of reputation, fame and glory. They would admit they still have some way to go. And I say that as someone who has always loved Barca and loathed Madrid.

So it would appear to be a COMBINATION of the two;- past glories and current strengths.....

And thus the arguments start, because you will never get agreement on how much emphasis to place on which criteria! :roll:

Personally, (and I am actually being serious here!) I don't think Manchester United have as big a reputation in Europe as their fans fondly think, because they continually fail in the Champions League. Sure,they're there every year, but they have only won it twice after reaching the knock-out rounds virtually every season. (I believe this season is the first time they have ever been in the UEFA Cup/Europa League. ) That's a hell of a lot of failures in the knock-out rounds.

Granted their record is better than Arsenal and Chelsea, who managed to cock it up EVERY YEAR! :lol:

And I think even Ferguson acknowledges that the mancs should have won it a lot more often, and he has expressed himself jealous of Liverpool's European Cup record.

Case rests!

Yes, I am sure that Sir Alex Ferguson is sitting at home right now eaten up with jealousy over Liverpool :funny:

 

[Chris Dennis]

Utd have always been bigger in Europe and the world thanks Busby Babes and sadly the Munich Air Crash ,Best Law and Sir Bobby Charlton and Beckham and Ronaldo

Well, go on believing that if it makes you happy, but it's complete b*llocks! :funny:

Liverpool are far bigger on the continent, as you'd know if you had any contact with European fans. They tend to judge teams not by all the media hype and crap (so Beckham doesn't even enter into the equation! :roll: ) but by success in the European trophies.....

And thats in the Champions League/European Cup:- Liverpool 5, Mancs 3

The other Competitions (Cup Winners Cup, UEFA Cup) Liverpool 3 Mancs 1

or 8-4 in total!

Liverpool's real period of impact was 1976 -81 when they won four trophies including 3 European Cups in just six seasons. (When have the mancs ever had a period of domination like that?)

Anfield is acknowledged throughout Europe as one of the legendary European stadiums. Old Trafford has never had that status. "You'll Never Walk Alone" is known throughout the continent. (And the manc song is? :roll: )

The "Busby Babes" thing and the Munich air tragedy definitely raised the profile of the mancs in this country, but much less so in Europe, where there have been other and even more severe air disasters. (Which we in this country seem remarkably ignorant of) For example the entire Torino team and all officials died in one terrible tragedy in which everybody on board the aircraft was killed.
That is not in any way to suggest Munich was not a terrible tragedy (of course it was) but it does not have quite the same significance for the Europeans as it does for us in this country.

There is no doubt that the mancs are a famous name in Europe. But they're like Roma or Valencia, whereas Liverpool are more like AC Milan or Barcelona! Just a step up in class, fame and achievement. :wave:

Does this mean that Nottingham Forest are a bigger club on the continent then say Arsenal, Chelsea or even Man Utd because of their period of domination in the European Cup then ?

Forest are a bigger club on the continent than they are in England being the only club to have won the European Cup more times than their own domestic league.

Interesting to note that Liverpool have only played in the CL in 8 of the 20 seasons it has been going.