As a visiting Swansea fan...

[Tugboat]

Calling ourselves a club means little if your were not successful on the pitch.

Let the football determine if were are a 'big club' in L2 and not just the fact that we have a very generous, loyal and passionate support.

 

[tagz]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

And that is before you add people from outside of Plymouth. At a guess I would say a 7,000 attendance game would see 2,500+ from outside of Plymouth

 

[Greenskin]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

In 2007 Argyle were in a stronger position than Swansea in every conceivable aspect and should have pushed on to become at least as successful as they are now.Our gates were bigger [belying the apathetic janner bollocks so often trotted out as an excuse for the inadequacies of those at the top of the club],the team was better and Home Park was certainly better than the Vetch even in it's underdeveloped state.It's to Swansea's great credit that they reached a certain stage and decided to push on beyond that level,both in terms of ground and team development.It's to the eternal discredit of the spineless,limp wristed and downright greedy Argyle [and indeed Plymouth] "leadership" that the gap between the clubs is now so wide in every conceivable respect.Utterly tragic.

 

[Ade the green]

You must be tired Cobi. Your last couple of posts are just paraphrasing others.

 

[IJN]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

In 2007 Argyle were in a stronger position than Swansea in every conceivable aspect and should have pushed on to become at least as successful as they are now.Our gates were bigger [belying the apathetic janner bollocks so often trotted out as an excuse for the inadequacies of those at the top of the club],the team was better and Home Park was certainly better than the Vetch even in it's underdeveloped state.It's to Swansea's great credit that they reached a certain stage and decided to push on beyond that level,both in terms of ground and team development.It's to the eternal discredit of the spineless,limp wristed and downright greedy Argyle [and indeed Plymouth] "leadership" that the gap between the clubs is now so wide in every conceivable respect.Utterly tragic.

Don't agree and never will.

The tragic demise was caused by the fact the 'leaders' noted, quite understandably the populace of Plymouth couldn't give a fishes mam about football.

Our great team wasn't that well supported after the initial spark of interest.

When the Janners go fed up with watching the likes of Derby, Coventry and Nott Forest, they stayed way in their 1000's.

You can say what you want Mr Skin, time and time again, it doesn't make it correct.

 

[Ollieargyle9]

We won't even be the second biggest club in this league next season.

Nope but we'll be one of the biggest in L1

 

[RWW]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

In 2007 Argyle were in a stronger position than Swansea in every conceivable aspect and should have pushed on to become at least as successful as they are now.Our gates were bigger [belying the apathetic janner bollocks so often trotted out as an excuse for the inadequacies of those at the top of the club],the team was better and Home Park was certainly better than the Vetch even in it's underdeveloped state.It's to Swansea's great credit that they reached a certain stage and decided to push on beyond that level,both in terms of ground and team development.It's to the eternal discredit of the spineless,limp wristed and downright greedy Argyle [and indeed Plymouth] "leadership" that the gap between the clubs is now so wide in every conceivable respect.Utterly tragic.

Don't agree and never will.

The tragic demise was caused by the fact the 'leaders' noted, quite understandably the populace of Plymouth couldn't give a fishes mam about football.

Our great team wasn't that well supported after the initial spark of interest.

When the Janners go fed up with watching the likes of Derby, Coventry and Nott Forest, they stayed way in their 1000's.

You can say what you want Mr Skin, time and time again, it doesn't make it correct.

By the same token, just because you repeat the opposite it doesn't make it true.

And what did our leaders do to enthuse the crowds that we were serious about getting out of the Championship?

1. Did we have ambitious expansion plans for the ground? (Note how our upturn under Luggy Mk 1 coincided with Phase 1).

2. Had we made one or two big signings (e.g. the forward at Southampton who went on to play in the Premiership that Holloway wanted. Incidentally his header at the Barn Park in the last minute end when we beat Southampton 2-1 may be the best save I have ever seen a goalie (Larrieu) make in person)

Our leaders did nothing accept...

1. Mislead Holloway about signings.

2. Fail to put together a vision together to sell to the fans to get the club into the Premiership

3. Re-appointed Luggy without seeing if he was the best man for the job. (Was this the time Brendan Rogers applied or was that earlier?)

4. Allowed a mid table Championship team to be sold off fairly cheaply to make the books look good.

5. Tried to replace millions of pounds of talent going out with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of talent coming in.

It wasn't the fans fault things went wrong. The leaders got greedy and never shared any type of vision for the club and as soon as the leaders were in it for themselves the rot set in.

 

[Cobi Budge.]

We won't even be the second biggest club in this league next season.

Nope but we'll be one of the biggest in L1

Or the biggest in non league football

 

[X Isle]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

In 2007 Argyle were in a stronger position than Swansea in every conceivable aspect and should have pushed on to become at least as successful as they are now.Our gates were bigger [belying the apathetic janner bollocks so often trotted out as an excuse for the inadequacies of those at the top of the club],the team was better and Home Park was certainly better than the Vetch even in it's underdeveloped state.It's to Swansea's great credit that they reached a certain stage and decided to push on beyond that level,both in terms of ground and team development.It's to the eternal discredit of the spineless,limp wristed and downright greedy Argyle [and indeed Plymouth] "leadership" that the gap between the clubs is now so wide in every conceivable respect.Utterly tragic.

Don't agree and never will.

The tragic demise was caused by the fact the 'leaders' noted, quite understandably the populace of Plymouth couldn't give a fishes mam about football.

Our great team wasn't that well supported after the initial spark of interest.

When the Janners go fed up with watching the likes of Derby, Coventry and Nott Forest, they stayed way in their 1000's.

You can say what you want Mr Skin, time and time again, it doesn't make it correct.

POW!!

There's something of a rarity, total and utter agreement.

The area wants the cart put before the horse before it'll come in truly big numbers, and crucially KEEP coming.

Trouble is, be it geographical isolation or a local apathy issues, the business model for throwing gazillions at Argyle has always been pretty much non-existent. But this was compounded, fatally, by the steady drift downwards of gates in the championship.

Now even a slow growth organic development model looks doomed, the area has demonstrated a low patience threshold for football at a great level.

It's no wonder James Brent talks of 'passing on the baton' once/if Argyle get back to the Championship. No-one will take it though, it'd be a fools errand unless you have money to waste, and businessmen simply don't do that.

The only hope of Argyle ever reaching the top flight is a) getting lucky or b) a fan winning a multiple roll-over euromillions draw.

Swansea put the cart before the horse and were rewarded for it. Good luck to 'em. It won't be replicated in Plymouth, three to four seasons in the Championship and the same old 'ambition/investment' excuse will get trotted out again. The irony that it's actually THE FANS lack of ambition and investment through belief, patience and bums on seats will again be lost on those pointing fingers at the boardroom.

 

[SWTT]

A city of 270,000 attracting 6/7000 or so each home game.. Not very big to me.

Lowly and relatively small clubs.. Big clubs tend to have played top flight football.

We have a big stadium for this league but that's really where it ends.

In 2007 Argyle were in a stronger position than Swansea in every conceivable aspect and should have pushed on to become at least as successful as they are now.Our gates were bigger [belying the apathetic janner bollocks so often trotted out as an excuse for the inadequacies of those at the top of the club],the team was better and Home Park was certainly better than the Vetch even in it's underdeveloped state.It's to Swansea's great credit that they reached a certain stage and decided to push on beyond that level,both in terms of ground and team development.It's to the eternal discredit of the spineless,limp wristed and downright greedy Argyle [and indeed Plymouth] "leadership" that the gap between the clubs is now so wide in every conceivable respect.Utterly tragic.

Don't agree and never will.

The tragic demise was caused by the fact the 'leaders' noted, quite understandably the populace of Plymouth couldn't give a fishes mam about football.

Our great team wasn't that well supported after the initial spark of interest.

When the Janners go fed up with watching the likes of Derby, Coventry and Nott Forest, they stayed way in their 1000's.

You can say what you want Mr Skin, time and time again, it doesn't make it correct.

By the same token, just because you repeat the opposite it doesn't make it true.

And what did our leaders do to enthuse the crowds that we were serious about getting out of the Championship?

1. Did we have ambitious expansion plans for the ground? (Note how our upturn under Luggy Mk 1 coincided with Phase 1).

2. Had we made one or two big signings (e.g. the forward at Southampton who went on to play in the Premiership that Holloway wanted. Incidentally his header at the Barn Park in the last minute end when we beat Southampton 2-1 may be the best save I have ever seen a goalie (Larrieu) make in person)

Our leaders did nothing accept...

1. Mislead Holloway about signings.

2. Fail to put together a vision together to sell to the fans to get the club into the Premiership

3. Re-appointed Luggy without seeing if he was the best man for the job. (Was this the time Brendan Rogers applied or was that earlier?)

4. Allowed a mid table Championship team to be sold off fairly cheaply to make the books look good.

5. Tried to replace millions of pounds of talent going out with hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of talent coming in.

It wasn't the fans fault things went wrong. The leaders got greedy and never shared any type of vision for the club and as soon as the leaders were in it for themselves the rot set in.

It's a purely academic debate that's impossible to prove either way, but I feel that's quite a good summary of the situation RWW. We became a selling club to our league rivals and replaced our best players with cheap and inferior footballers. It wasn't an inspiring time for Argyle, as ticket prices were hiked up and the quality of football declined. We didn't really give the whole Championship promotion push a true go, not even slightly. We seemed to find some stable footing in the 06-07 season and finished that season on a bit of a high, but we failed to capitalise on that feel good factor and we all know how the following season sparked our decline.

 

[Trev501]

POW!!

There's something of a rarity, total and utter agreement.

The area wants the cart put before the horse before it'll come in truly big numbers, and crucially KEEP coming.

Trouble is, be it geographical isolation or a local apathy issues, the business model for throwing gazillions at Argyle has always been pretty much non-existent. But this was compounded, fatally, by the steady drift downwards of gates in the championship.

Now even a slow growth organic development model looks doomed, the area has demonstrated a low patience threshold for football at a great level.

It's no wonder James Brent talks of 'passing on the baton' once/if Argyle get back to the Championship. No-one will take it though, it'd be a fools errand unless you have money to waste, and businessmen simply don't do that.

The only hope of Argyle ever reaching the top flight is a) getting lucky or b) a fan winning a multiple roll-over euromillions draw.

Swansea put the cart before the horse and were rewarded for it. Good luck to 'em. It won't be replicated in Plymouth, three to four seasons in the Championship and the same old 'ambition/investment' excuse will get trotted out again. The irony that it's actually THE FANS lack of ambition and investment through belief, patience and bums on seats will again be lost on those pointing fingers at the boardroom.

Absolutely spot on! Smiffy, I'm back on your wavelength again

 

[Ollieargyle9]

We won't even be the second biggest club in this league next season.

Nope but we'll be one of the biggest in L1

Or the biggest in non league football

Ever the optimist, Cobi :greensmile:

 

[ealinggreen]

Burnley,QPR,Wigan,Cardiff,Swansea and Stoke all got crap crowds when struggling with mid table Championship sides.The idea Argyle fans are any different is rubbish,we are not a defferent species.If we had a sugar Daddy and a top class team aligned to the facilities,the crowds would be massive.Sadly it will never happen.All of the above threw money at the problem,clubs do not evolve to that level by cautious and prudent management.Sadly that needs a wheelan type figure.

 

[Paul_Roberts]

As per usual in a Pasoti debate, the truth can be found somewhere in between the two sides.

Gates dwindled, we didn't sign Scott Sinclair, we lied to a top manager about investment, we brought in a manager who played dour football... basically the opposite of what happened at Swansea.

You can't blame any single element, it was the whole sorry shebang.

 

[Greenskin]

As per usual in a Pasoti debate, the truth can be found somewhere in between the two sides.

Gates dwindled, we didn't sign Scott Sinclair, we lied to a top manager about investment, we brought in a manager who played dour football... basically the opposite of what happened at Swansea.

You can't blame any single element, it was the whole sorry shebang.

But then why did gates dwindle? Surely it must have been because Swansea maintained their momentum rather than enduring two relegation battles in their first two seasons? They finished 8th,7th and 7th in their first three seasons,whereas we finished 17th,14th and 11th-beats me how anyone can't see the correlation between results on the pitch and subsequent attendances.And Swanseas gates weren't that much better in those seasons anyway-they averaged 15400 in their promotion season,which was actually worse than our first season in the CCC by 1000 per match when Argyle were battling relegation.Their gates were nowhere near as good as Argyle's when they were similarly struggling in the bottom tier either,which would suggest that any implication that Swansea supporters are somehow intrinsically more loyal or better than Plymouth supporters is way wide of the mark.