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#Bottlers
- Thread starter Metal Green Mickey
- Start date
What did I start here?
To clarify, I actually think Plymouth has a lot to offer, check my post history for proof of that.
The mediocrity I refer to is more about the inherently negative mindset mindset that seems to pervade the city. "Acceptance of mediocrity" is the phrase that keeps getting used - I've always felt like there's a suspicion of people with ambition in Plymouth, a dislike of people who try to make things happen, even a fear of change to the status quo. The Herald letters page on any given day shows this.
Look at the swarths of complaints any time there's a development in the city.
- Student housing ["not MORE student housing, what about us locals" - ignoring the fact that the Uni brings in about £300m a year to an economy with not a lot else going on]
- The development at Bretonside - "who's going to use that, we don't need two big cinemas, what a waste of money, look what's happening with the coach station" etc
- JB's plans for the Pavilions - the suspicion and naysaying has just about killed these, by the looks of it.
- The lack of an airport - remember the furious, continual complaints from people who lived up near it? It's ridiculous that a city the size of Plymouth doesn't have one, this should be a source of shame for the city but it's swept under the rug
- The lack of support for the arts - this is a more personal one to me, but Plymouth is imminently going to be down to about 2 or 3 venues for original live music in the city. For a city that size, that's incredible - there were a few people complaining about the Voodoo Lounge shutting down, but apart from that where's the uproar? Remember the uproar and complaints about MTV Crashes, the worries about the disruption it was going to bring? Furthermore - remember that the council gave over the stage to bloody cover bands packed with saddos pretending to be Liam Gallagher, instead of trying to support young people in the city desperately trying to get their music noticed?
There's so, so much untapped potential in the city and that's what frustrates me so much. Look at something like the Royal William Yard, it should be nationally famous but get past Ivybridge and no-one knows it exists. The whole Hoe foreshore could be something incredible, instead you get down there and it's all crumbling concrete and boarded up buildings - and don't get me started on everything around Drake's Island.
I've posted before on here about how there seems to be a complete lack of local pride in the city - sorry IJN, but I'm not from the city, I'm Cornish and in my entire 31 years I've lived in Plymouth for about 18 months. There's no Geordie/Scouse/Manc/even Cornish etc identity that people take pride in - instead you've got a city full of people supporting football teams 300 miles away who they'll never see play, writing in to the Herald to complain about Cornish Argyle fans parking outside their house on match days.
Don't get annoyed with me because I say Plymouth is mediocre - it's a sad truth, with some exceptions. There's a reason its the biggest city in the UK to have never had top level football. The city isn't bothered whether they've got it, or much else to be proud of.
Apologies for a rambling post.
To clarify, I actually think Plymouth has a lot to offer, check my post history for proof of that.
The mediocrity I refer to is more about the inherently negative mindset mindset that seems to pervade the city. "Acceptance of mediocrity" is the phrase that keeps getting used - I've always felt like there's a suspicion of people with ambition in Plymouth, a dislike of people who try to make things happen, even a fear of change to the status quo. The Herald letters page on any given day shows this.
Look at the swarths of complaints any time there's a development in the city.
- Student housing ["not MORE student housing, what about us locals" - ignoring the fact that the Uni brings in about £300m a year to an economy with not a lot else going on]
- The development at Bretonside - "who's going to use that, we don't need two big cinemas, what a waste of money, look what's happening with the coach station" etc
- JB's plans for the Pavilions - the suspicion and naysaying has just about killed these, by the looks of it.
- The lack of an airport - remember the furious, continual complaints from people who lived up near it? It's ridiculous that a city the size of Plymouth doesn't have one, this should be a source of shame for the city but it's swept under the rug
- The lack of support for the arts - this is a more personal one to me, but Plymouth is imminently going to be down to about 2 or 3 venues for original live music in the city. For a city that size, that's incredible - there were a few people complaining about the Voodoo Lounge shutting down, but apart from that where's the uproar? Remember the uproar and complaints about MTV Crashes, the worries about the disruption it was going to bring? Furthermore - remember that the council gave over the stage to bloody cover bands packed with saddos pretending to be Liam Gallagher, instead of trying to support young people in the city desperately trying to get their music noticed?
There's so, so much untapped potential in the city and that's what frustrates me so much. Look at something like the Royal William Yard, it should be nationally famous but get past Ivybridge and no-one knows it exists. The whole Hoe foreshore could be something incredible, instead you get down there and it's all crumbling concrete and boarded up buildings - and don't get me started on everything around Drake's Island.
I've posted before on here about how there seems to be a complete lack of local pride in the city - sorry IJN, but I'm not from the city, I'm Cornish and in my entire 31 years I've lived in Plymouth for about 18 months. There's no Geordie/Scouse/Manc/even Cornish etc identity that people take pride in - instead you've got a city full of people supporting football teams 300 miles away who they'll never see play, writing in to the Herald to complain about Cornish Argyle fans parking outside their house on match days.
Don't get annoyed with me because I say Plymouth is mediocre - it's a sad truth, with some exceptions. There's a reason its the biggest city in the UK to have never had top level football. The city isn't bothered whether they've got it, or much else to be proud of.
Apologies for a rambling post.
Andy Holland":9pq63x2r said:
Couldn't (and indeed didn't) put it any better myself. Still very proud to be an adopted Plymothian though, despite all of this.
Well people seem to have identified that Plymouth is mediocre. It's hard not to agree.
However, when questions are asked about this football club as to why we aren't more successful to me the answer is because this city has failed it. You can't have a successful football club if the city isn't vibrant. People who live in the city have it hammered into them that the football club are a joke. The city isn't taken seriously, so why should it's football club.
As people get into their early 20's -30's they eventually move and get away from this city because they are more ambitious. That's great, except whilst they move away and fulfill their ambitions in their lives they also seem to expect the club they love to somehow match their sucess in their lives as they move away.
So then when Argyle fail again to match the ambitions of its fan base we are left wondering why and how it could happen again?
Except, whilst people have moved on the problem is the club remains dormant in this sleeping giant of a city. Sure, it gets the odd poke and prod every so often and some kind of life is rekindled within it. Yet it can't be sustained because the club can't get the backing of what really is needed. The people of Plymouth.
Folk who have moved away from the city to improve their lives get angry at another frustrating season. They blame everything, but what is really to blame. The Plymouth public. However, the people of Plymouth may feel it's unfair. Why should they pay their money to support a floundering club.
If the club got the sustained backing of the Plymouth people, and not just for the odd big game, then Argyle wouldn't be languishing in league two. Yet the Plymouth people don't believe in this football club. Sure they talk about it and have an opinion but they don't put their money into supporting Argyle.
The reason. They don't believe in the football club. Just like the city they live in, they think it's a joke. So when all these ex-Plymouth, Devon or Cornish supporting Argyle people who have moved for a better life because they don't think it's achievable to get that in this area, comment about how poor the club is l think, they seem to miss the point that the apathy they moved away from is still here. It surrounds the club, and not just the city, a number of years after they left. Maybe they thought over a number of years that apathy would change a little towards the club. That somehow the club could break free of the cities own apathy. However, it goes hand in hand with how people feel about the city.
How can you expect Plymouth public to change its mind set when they keep getting it drummed into them from afar the only way to obtain a decent life style is to get away from Plymouth? It hardly makes you want to stay and embrace what the city has to offer.
So the people who moved away from the area expect the club to improve when actually how can it as it loses members of its already small home fan base.
People outside of the city blame everything inside the club. The people who live in the city, who the club rely on for turnover, just don't care enough about the club to turn up to home matches. The club itself just suffers as fingers are pointed as fans blame the board/manager whilst the board reiterate they need the home fans to turn up to give the club a better chance of promotion. So instead of a united front the blame game carries on.
However, when questions are asked about this football club as to why we aren't more successful to me the answer is because this city has failed it. You can't have a successful football club if the city isn't vibrant. People who live in the city have it hammered into them that the football club are a joke. The city isn't taken seriously, so why should it's football club.
As people get into their early 20's -30's they eventually move and get away from this city because they are more ambitious. That's great, except whilst they move away and fulfill their ambitions in their lives they also seem to expect the club they love to somehow match their sucess in their lives as they move away.
So then when Argyle fail again to match the ambitions of its fan base we are left wondering why and how it could happen again?
Except, whilst people have moved on the problem is the club remains dormant in this sleeping giant of a city. Sure, it gets the odd poke and prod every so often and some kind of life is rekindled within it. Yet it can't be sustained because the club can't get the backing of what really is needed. The people of Plymouth.
Folk who have moved away from the city to improve their lives get angry at another frustrating season. They blame everything, but what is really to blame. The Plymouth public. However, the people of Plymouth may feel it's unfair. Why should they pay their money to support a floundering club.
If the club got the sustained backing of the Plymouth people, and not just for the odd big game, then Argyle wouldn't be languishing in league two. Yet the Plymouth people don't believe in this football club. Sure they talk about it and have an opinion but they don't put their money into supporting Argyle.
The reason. They don't believe in the football club. Just like the city they live in, they think it's a joke. So when all these ex-Plymouth, Devon or Cornish supporting Argyle people who have moved for a better life because they don't think it's achievable to get that in this area, comment about how poor the club is l think, they seem to miss the point that the apathy they moved away from is still here. It surrounds the club, and not just the city, a number of years after they left. Maybe they thought over a number of years that apathy would change a little towards the club. That somehow the club could break free of the cities own apathy. However, it goes hand in hand with how people feel about the city.
How can you expect Plymouth public to change its mind set when they keep getting it drummed into them from afar the only way to obtain a decent life style is to get away from Plymouth? It hardly makes you want to stay and embrace what the city has to offer.
So the people who moved away from the area expect the club to improve when actually how can it as it loses members of its already small home fan base.
People outside of the city blame everything inside the club. The people who live in the city, who the club rely on for turnover, just don't care enough about the club to turn up to home matches. The club itself just suffers as fingers are pointed as fans blame the board/manager whilst the board reiterate they need the home fans to turn up to give the club a better chance of promotion. So instead of a united front the blame game carries on.
Sorry i take the opposite view andy.
Surely you get opposition to development and other stuff mentioned wherever you live dont you.
Or do you live in a parallel universe on star trek.
Perhaps thats what london has become since i last lived there.
I am not surprised you aint a janner though. Lack of pride in the city?
How would you know if you aint from here. I would never criticise the cornish as a people
in lacking pride in their roots. Its insulting and totally untrue just like your claim.
There are premier fans all over the uk and the world so dont just stop at plymouth.
So much of your rambling is about lack of investment. National politics deal with that.
Not us mere mortals. What do you want us to do. Rise up and riot.
Plymouth is mediocre. Fair enough. Your opinion. Aint mine.
Dont agree with or like the "inherently negative mindset" bit either. Tarring previous
generations as well?
Argyle have never premiered because of location and money or lack of full stop.
Sorry the bog off stands as its the people and janner culture you are ranting at.
Not that you care im sure.
Surely you get opposition to development and other stuff mentioned wherever you live dont you.
Or do you live in a parallel universe on star trek.
Perhaps thats what london has become since i last lived there.
I am not surprised you aint a janner though. Lack of pride in the city?
How would you know if you aint from here. I would never criticise the cornish as a people
in lacking pride in their roots. Its insulting and totally untrue just like your claim.
There are premier fans all over the uk and the world so dont just stop at plymouth.
So much of your rambling is about lack of investment. National politics deal with that.
Not us mere mortals. What do you want us to do. Rise up and riot.
Plymouth is mediocre. Fair enough. Your opinion. Aint mine.
Dont agree with or like the "inherently negative mindset" bit either. Tarring previous
generations as well?
Argyle have never premiered because of location and money or lack of full stop.
Sorry the bog off stands as its the people and janner culture you are ranting at.
Not that you care im sure.
Also, comment overheard......"about time they knocked down that old church on the roundabout in town, bleddy eyesore".........janners eh?
Yes I'm tarring previous generations too, I would have thought that obvious - like the generation who didn't kick up a fuss about the motorway stopping 40 miles away, the generation who let the Guinness Clock get bulldozed and Charles Church get pinned in by a roundabout (see, not all development is positive, that's an argument I've never made).
If you don't think 25+ years living a stone's throw from the city and visiting it every week, 5 years working in it and 18 months living in it is enough to judge it, then I despair.
And to your rather snidey last point - apply some intelligent thinking and it's fairly obvious that I do care, otherwise why would I bother? I'd go so far as to say it looks like I care more than you, going by your "There's nothing we can do" attitude.
If you don't think 25+ years living a stone's throw from the city and visiting it every week, 5 years working in it and 18 months living in it is enough to judge it, then I despair.
And to your rather snidey last point - apply some intelligent thinking and it's fairly obvious that I do care, otherwise why would I bother? I'd go so far as to say it looks like I care more than you, going by your "There's nothing we can do" attitude.
Yeh well thats my mum and dad your insulting as well then with your arrogance.Andy Holland":tfuyt1v3 said:
They were the generation who rebuilt plymouth after the blitz. Dad was an evacuee to bude.
Mum lived at saltash. They lived through it. They helped rebuild it. Dad was a chippie for
the council during the rebuild. "Inherent negative mindset" they had. Yeah sure.
Was it the "negative inherent mindset" that kept argyle going recently.
Also since when was the plymouth population responsible for the motorway finishing at execeter?
Good development. Bad development. It happens everywhere. Not just here.
Since when were you elected a judge?
Well my 47years living here and 15 away in islington,beckenham,wycombe and cullompton tops your
"experience" and i would argue makes me a much better judge. Not that i claim to be one anyway
unlike some.
Plus my job took me to virtually every location in central london and many surrounding. So i think
i know a bit about urban environments. And rural come to think of it with some of the other locations.
As for the snidey last point. It was meant as a reference to the bog off quote and your probable
reaction to it.
As it goes i think you do care but you are so so wrong in attacking the people and not the system.
Didn't both of last season's play-off finalists spend much of the season in the top three, then go on a poor run of form to find themselves both pipped to auto promotion by Bury?
Seems it's not the first team it's happened to.
That doesn't mean to say I'm not sick at the way the season's gone, especially some of the performances at home. But hopefully, with the main core of the squad being the same as last season's, they will have learnt from experience about the pressure of the play-off games and not make the same mistake twice.
I also agree with Adams that the standard of League 2 has improved, it's interesting to note that every team that is in the top 7 bar us this season finished 12th or below last season.
Seems it's not the first team it's happened to.
That doesn't mean to say I'm not sick at the way the season's gone, especially some of the performances at home. But hopefully, with the main core of the squad being the same as last season's, they will have learnt from experience about the pressure of the play-off games and not make the same mistake twice.
I also agree with Adams that the standard of League 2 has improved, it's interesting to note that every team that is in the top 7 bar us this season finished 12th or below last season.
Metal_Green_Mickey":23demcyw said:
Whilst I agree with a number of these sentiments, there are a number of the wild sweeping statements that you are prone to. Yesterday you said "There is no one who wants to flash the cash at Argyle, it's that simple", a statement you can't possibly back up, and which I suspect may not be true. Today it's the Plymouth people who think the city and club are a joke, and those outside the city who blame everything on the club. In a lot of cases what you say is true, but these remarks certainly don't apply to everybody.
You're right that a lot of younger people do move elsewhere, but that's true in other places too. Movement of labour is greater than in the past. Equally a lot of people move into our area - it's not as if the city and its surrounds are empty. Should we be working harder to attract more incomers - they may have other allegiances, but surely some more can be attracted - see London Cabbie and Old Gunner. Meanwhile our exiles are also one of our strengths, because they contribute greatly to our strong away support - one of the assets the club has.
Other cities, and their clubs, have many of the same problems. Where many differ is that they have had a club in the Premier League within living memory and therefore have lived the dream. Their experiences will have recruited new fans, many of whom will remain in the desire to see it again. Argyle fans don't have that in their memories.
So how is the cycle to be broken? I accept that it is very difficult for the club, but nevertheless that is where the impetus has to come from. You are not going to attract masses of extra fans unless progress is seen to be happening. That means a team that wins regularly, and preferably plays attacking football particularly at home. It is frustrating as, in the first half of the season we appeared to be nearing such a point - had our good form continued, history suggests that the late season gates would have been significantly higher with newcomers and returnees attracted to a success story. The other point is that when the club reaches such a point, it has to shout about it from the rooftops, and use every available device to promote itself. Argyle, and I'm not just talking about the Brent era, have never grabbed these opportunities as I would have liked.
There are always plenty of excuses. It's relevant to say we are a low wage area, but we're not the only low wage area. In other areas, mostly within cities with a stronger football history, many relatively low wage earners find money for football because it's more a way of life. When we start to make progress, we have to motivate people to get rid of the "excuses", however relevant they often may be.
Finally, I do wonder sometimes whether some of our support, which has a notable older demographic, really wants the club to change. I think a small but significant number of people rather like the club the way it is, even though they complain about it - indeed they love the complaining part! They like the more exclusive nature of a small club, they like the homespun/haphazard feel of it and, particularly after recent experiences, fear a more corporate, efficient, and less personal administration. I won't use the word "village", but believe some (and perhaps too many) are very content supporting a backwater, less progressive outfit.
xmastree":190sv4ju said:
Fair enough you raised some interesting points.
So lets take each one in turn.
Well been supporting Argyle since the mid 80's. And apart from McCauley who everyone hated tell me another owner between this period who flashed the cash on the playing budget.
Currently we have been under Brent's reign. So you tell me, if we had people who could "flash the cash" at Argyle why have we struggled to get funding for redevelopment of the grandstand. How many years has it been? If there surely was someone then you would of thought they would of come forward. Yes we have a new director and yes I'm grateful for his new investment but its not the sort of level of finance that builds grandstands. Only 7 figure sums will do this.
Well you find posts on here from people who don't live in this area who think the reason we cant sustain success is down to the people who live in this city not getting behind the club. Its either Brent or Adams that gets the blame. That's their point which is fair enough as some blame can be attached. However, it doesn't stop the fact if they got behind the club then we wouldn't be languishing in league two.
Personally, I believe if people from the city came out and packed out HP eventually the club would move forward even quicker. You get a chance of a bigger playing budget which of course means higher quality players. Yet instead people in this city expect someone to dip their hand in their pocket to build a better team instead of dipping into their pocket to help contributing to building the club. Of course they don't apply to everybody. For a start the faithful 7,000 people that turn up every Saturday at HP. Yet if people really believed in this football club you wouldn't get a city as big as this getting such low gates. Would you?
So this is why I talked about how you break a cycle. This cycle has been going on in my lifetime as a supporter.
Until this city falls back in love with its football club again then league one football is about as good its ever going to get. How can it get any better. We already seen when we got into the championship with the big boys we just couldn't compete because eventually they take our better players. Yes we had crowds of 13,000-17,000 but you need crowds of 20,0000+.
The reason why Brent wants to build a grandstand so the ground capacity is below the 20,0000 limit is
1. Its cheaper obviously than building a bigger grandstand
2. There hasnt been any recent signs, even if you take the championship years, that we could sustain 20,000 crowds at HP.
Even when Argyle were doing well under Holloway HP should have been selling out. How many times did it become sold out? Argyle were competing with clubs in and around the top 6 but still they (Plymouth Public) don't come.
Unless of course this "sugar daddy" that we been talking since god knows how long and has never arrived actually turns up before we all drop down dead then I'm afraid all your left with is being hugely realistic about what this club can achieve. See this is the problem. As fans we don't want realism, we want to dream.
Maybe a miracle will happen. Yet it will have to be on the grand scale of Leicester city wining the premier league for Argyle to get in the championship and compete in the top 6 and get promoted. So I guess there is always hope. However, slim it is.
So I understand why you say I am making sweeping statements but hopefully you can see there is some logic behind my thinking. I always try to think about what I say and to back it up with constructive arguments. Thought I was pretty rational. However, this season for me is a good season. Something to build on. Yet IF loyal Argyle fans don't think this is a good season then how on earth would the casual Plymouth person feel about the club? We've got no chance of getting new support in if the loyal fans are saying how disappointed they are with a 78 point season. No wonder you cant get the floating supporter if the message out there isn't positive by some.
I know I am not going to be popular by what I say but without addressing certain areas that are difficult to talk about then I cant see how the club can ever make the strides it wants.
I don't think you can blame our crowds - 7,000-8,000 in this division is excellent. Alternatively, you can't really blame the public at large who stay away... you have to give someone a reason to come and watch - sustained success would do it.
I think 7,000 to 8,000 is magnificent too. Nowhere near as good as our Play Off rivals but brilliant none the less.
The dwindling crowds of the CCC mystified me then as much as it does now. I'll never understand that.
Nine years of progress up the leagues, each season better placed than the other, and the crowds dropped. It's a strange one and no mistake, as we were playing some good football and had some good players to boot.
I can remember a post on here saying what a sh*t draw we had we Newcastle came out of the hat. We are a strangely supported club in my mind. We don't mind being a top dog in the lower leagues but then seem to have some sort of 'minnow mentality' in the higher one (obviously we have no experience of the top one of all).
Perhaps someone can explain it to me as I never ever understood what happened in the last three seasons of the CCC.
The dwindling crowds of the CCC mystified me then as much as it does now. I'll never understand that.
Nine years of progress up the leagues, each season better placed than the other, and the crowds dropped. It's a strange one and no mistake, as we were playing some good football and had some good players to boot.
I can remember a post on here saying what a sh*t draw we had we Newcastle came out of the hat. We are a strangely supported club in my mind. We don't mind being a top dog in the lower leagues but then seem to have some sort of 'minnow mentality' in the higher one (obviously we have no experience of the top one of all).
Perhaps someone can explain it to me as I never ever understood what happened in the last three seasons of the CCC.
