Just back (anyone?)

[Knibbsworth]

.

Turning point for our season? It's the sort of result that could well be.

I can't really see how you will look back on Bradford as the 'turning point' when the result is our 6th match unbeaten, our third win in four matches etc.

Shrewsbury was the turning point, the first game in a long time we stopped the stupidity, the ill discipline, and the players followed a game plan and demonstrated some focus. The follow up game against Blackburn showed outstanding team spirit and commitment, it was evident then that Adams still had the players. These two points were vital and we showed character in battling hard for them - defeated teams would have rolled over.

It was logical then that results inevitably would improve. If we can do it against those two teams, it stands to reason the bottom half sides are not going to come and roll us over any longer.

This isn't just a patch of form for Adams. For whatever reasons the players were all over the place for 10 games. That period is over, the new Argyle is hard to beat and morale is high. Players across the park are returning to form. It must be a terrific feeling in the camp and I'm sure they can't wait for the next match.

I think the turning point happened off the pitch when the players held their own inquest after the home defeat against Fleetwood.
The six game unbeaten run happened after that meeting in the changing room with the Shrewsbury game the first of those six.

We are better because of Toums has given us some legs in midfield.

Yes we got a result without Carey but from the highlights, the Sky bloke on Soccer Saturday in the studio (a former league manager) and Radio Devon commentary they all seem to think we were hanging on with Bradford very much on top.

There has never been a question of lack of commitment or effort. That isn't an issue.

Its about the quality of the football and whether its good enough to stay up in league one. Carey wont be scoring wonder goals every week so I look around the team and apart from the odd one from Jervis and Grant I think who is going to score. We have 3 midfielders in Toums, Songo and Fox who you wouldn't put any money on. So where on earth are the goals coming from?

We talk about turning point. The last 3 home LEAGUE games were Fleetwood 1-2, Shrewsbury 1-1 and Rochdale 1-1. We haven't exactly turned the performances or home results around. We have a major issue breaking teams down.

And yet we have turned the corner (apparently). I hope we have but for me I think we are more combative in midfield and our discipline is better but defensively we look brittle and up front still lack punch. The same as we did during our poor run.

This essay is no different to the dozens from last season, when well into March and April you couldn't see how we could possibly get promoted with a team that spent 70% of the match "clinging on for dear life". Sorry to be blunt but you've said it all before, you don't see how we can keep picking up points when the opposition have all the chances.

There is little correlation between number of chances created and points won. Very often in football, the more entertaining side don't win, the more disciplined side will.

Exactly the way we played v Bradford worked all over the division last season, no better than v Doncaster when we soaked it all up and hit them with one set piece goal. We had among the best away form in the country playing no differently to that.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

.

Turning point for our season? It's the sort of result that could well be.

I can't really see how you will look back on Bradford as the 'turning point' when the result is our 6th match unbeaten, our third win in four matches etc.

Shrewsbury was the turning point, the first game in a long time we stopped the stupidity, the ill discipline, and the players followed a game plan and demonstrated some focus. The follow up game against Blackburn showed outstanding team spirit and commitment, it was evident then that Adams still had the players. These two points were vital and we showed character in battling hard for them - defeated teams would have rolled over.

It was logical then that results inevitably would improve. If we can do it against those two teams, it stands to reason the bottom half sides are not going to come and roll us over any longer.

This isn't just a patch of form for Adams. For whatever reasons the players were all over the place for 10 games. That period is over, the new Argyle is hard to beat and morale is high. Players across the park are returning to form. It must be a terrific feeling in the camp and I'm sure they can't wait for the next match.

I think the turning point happened off the pitch when the players held their own inquest after the home defeat against Fleetwood.
The six game unbeaten run happened after that meeting in the changing room with the Shrewsbury game the first of those six.

We are better because of Toums has given us some legs in midfield.

Yes we got a result without Carey but from the highlights, the Sky bloke on Soccer Saturday in the studio (a former league manager) and Radio Devon commentary they all seem to think we were hanging on with Bradford very much on top.

There has never been a question of lack of commitment or effort. That isn't an issue.

Its about the quality of the football and whether its good enough to stay up in league one. Carey wont be scoring wonder goals every week so I look around the team and apart from the odd one from Jervis and Grant I think who is going to score. We have 3 midfielders in Toums, Songo and Fox who you wouldn't put any money on. So where on earth are the goals coming from?

We talk about turning point. The last 3 home LEAGUE games were Fleetwood 1-2, Shrewsbury 1-1 and Rochdale 1-1. We haven't exactly turned the performances or home results around. We have a major issue breaking teams down.

And yet we have turned the corner (apparently). I hope we have but for me I think we are more combative in midfield and our discipline is better but defensively we look brittle and up front still lack punch. The same as we did during our poor run.

This essay is no different to the dozens from last season, when well into March and April you couldn't see how we could possibly get promoted with a team that spent 70% of the match "clinging on for dear life". Sorry to be blunt but you've said it all before, you don't see how we can keep picking up points when the opposition have all the chances.

There is little correlation between number of chances created and points won. Very often in football, the more entertaining side don't win, the more disciplined side will.

Exactly the way we played v Bradford worked all over the division last season, no better than v Doncaster when we soaked it all up and hit them with one set piece goal. We had among the best away form in the country.

Its is different by one crucial point. We are in a higher and better league. Playing better teams! Oh and the fact we are 23rd!

 

[Knibbsworth]

We are 23rd because the team spent the first ten games with their heads in the clouds. We've had to start our race several furlongs behind everyone else, but last season's Argyle is showing character now.

If this league is so much better, so much more clinical, so different, why did Shrewsbury not destroy us a few weeks ago? They are the league leaders averaging 2.5 points a game. Why did Blackburn not turn us over at Ewood Park with our rookie keeper? They certainly peppered our goal trying. Why did Wimbledon and Grimsby not score against us? All we do is defend and let them have the ball. Why did Bradford not beat us in front of their 20,000 fans? And why did we keep a clean sheet at Anfield against Firminho, Lallana, Sturridge, Origi etc.?

Defending well and disciplined works at any stadium at any level, Adams has proved that repeatedly with his management.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

We are 23rd because the team spent the first ten games with their heads in the clouds. We've had to start our race several furlongs behind everyone else, but last season's Argyle is showing character now.

If this league is so much better, so much more clinical, so different, why did Shrewsbury not destroy us a few weeks ago? They are the league leaders averaging 2.5 points a game. Why did Blackburn not turn us over at Ewood Park with our rookie keeper? They certainly peppered our goal trying. Why did Wimbledon and Grimsby not score against us? All we do is defend and let them have the ball. Why did Bradford not beat us in front of their 20,000 fans? And why did we keep a clean sheet at Anfield against Firminho, Lallana, Sturridge, Origi etc.?

Defending well and disciplined works at any stadium at any level, Adams has proved that repeatedly with his management.

If the league isn't that much better why have we only won once at home AND only drawn 2 out of 8 game played at HP?

If the league isn't that much better why are we sitting currently with a -11 goal difference?

You talk about the away form but what about the home form where we sit currently at the bottom of the table?

You cant just neglect we are 23rd in the league and say it will be fine because we had a decent mini run of results. We have played 17 games. So basically we have only 6 more games until we are half way through the season. Our league position and the stats, especially at HP tell you exactly just how good a team we are currently.

I'm not saying we cant survive. Our away form might be good enough to scrap the points playing the style we do. However, if you think you can keep giving teams clear cut chances like Blackburn and Bradford whilst having very little threat going forward and win games in this league then fair play.

It wont take much to turn these current performances into defeats. You only have to watch the recent games at HP where we couldn't even beat a over physical, organised but blunt Rochdale to see its going to be a scrap to survive. The issue isn't that we are in a relegation battle. The issue is that lack of positivity in the way we play. We have one way of playing, defend deep and hit on the counter occasionally. That isn't a good recipe for a football team who wants to progress.

 

[Knibbsworth]

That's a fair enough critique, but it's the Adams way, and it worked well enough last season.

People seem to belittle Rochdale, many Argyle fans bizarrely expected 3 points when we are behind them in the table and have been in the division below them for a number of years.

Quite why that was expected to be an easier game than any other escapes me. They are a well drilled, physical side, as hard to beat on the day as any other team. The way Rochdale fight and scrap for points is exactly the way we will need to to make sure we are not in that bottom 4 next spring.

 

[Ray Stidwell]

And they too have a good manager- .......
...(indeed, as it happens, Keith Hill was “ one of us” ( & many of us would have been happy to have had that good “Argyle bey” return to us as manager during recent vacancies))

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

Believe it or not l wasn't belittling Rochdale, that's just how it appeared to me they played when l saw them at HP. Hill has done wonders on what l imagine is a low budget. Probably one of the lowest in the league.

It's like Shrewsbury. Looked dogey at the back. The goalie looked like he had a mistake in him. Be very surprised if they finish top 6.

Fleetwood another side l can't say l was that impressed with because they only looked good because of the space we allowed them to utilise.

Even Grimsby in the cup. Second half we just threw away any initiative we built up.

All these teams we allowed to play their football. When we did have a go at them they looked vulnerable. Yet Adams worries more about the opposition than what we can do to hurt them.

When you listen to Adams it's all sounds very exciting. Yet what he describes isn't the way his team play on the pitch. "We dominated them" he often says when most of the time the opposition have the a large percentage of the play. "We created numerous chances" he says when normally you will be lucky to see an opposition goalkeeper tested with more than two shots on target, especially at HP.

It's just about opinions. I have no problem with the alternative view. I find it interesting the way people seem to change opinion so quickly on Adams when we get a defeat/win.

The reason l often post on this is because Adams gets tactical praise for sticking all 10 men behind the ball and defending. Where are the tactics in this? They don't often do anything constructive but stand just outside the penalty box and let the opposition play. We wait whilst they cross or shoot and hope they can't hit or aim for the target they desire. It happened last season and it's continuing to happen this season. Difference is we are 23rd because opposition hurt us more than league two teams could do.

Surely, a tactical genius is someone who knows how to break down those 10 men behind the ball.

Make no mistake l want Argyle to survive at any cost.

Yet l can't honestly say we currently don't deserve to be 23rd in the league given the 8 games lve seen at HP.

 

[Larry David]

I think the recent turnaround in form is possibly down to several factors.

It took time for the new signings to bed in and adapt to Derek's/our style of play. I think Diagouraga has been the missing link in midfield and Songo has been superb in whatever position selected, he has done a great job sitting in front of the back four, this in turn has given Carey the freedom to express himself and taken the pressure off him.

I think the centre back pairing has taken a while to gel but Letheren and certainly Matthews seem far more decisive in coming and dealing with crosses in and around the six yard box which has to help Edwards and Bradley. Also we seem to be setting up a bit deeper at the back which can be frustrating but it also means their lack of pace is not exposed and prevents a quicker player getting in behind them, or the full backs for that matter, as easily.

Anyway just my take on it.

 

[yashin]

I agree its been good to see the two keepers mentioned dominating the area something that has been lacking in Lukes play before his injury .

 

[Barnpark]

The results have improved but when you are loosing every week they can't get any worse but we still have a problem scoring goals 1 a game except the Charlton match. To keep us in this league this needs to improve

 

[999mattyg]

.

Turning point for our season? It's the sort of result that could well be.

I can't really see how you will look back on Bradford as the 'turning point' when the result is our 6th match unbeaten, our third win in four matches etc.

Shrewsbury was the turning point, the first game in a long time we stopped the stupidity, the ill discipline, and the players followed a game plan and demonstrated some focus. The follow up game against Blackburn showed outstanding team spirit and commitment, it was evident then that Adams still had the players. These two points were vital and we showed character in battling hard for them - defeated teams would have rolled over.

It was logical then that results inevitably would improve. If we can do it against those two teams, it stands to reason the bottom half sides are not going to come and roll us over any longer.

This isn't just a patch of form for Adams. For whatever reasons the players were all over the place for 10 games. That period is over, the new Argyle is hard to beat and morale is high. Players across the park are returning to form. It must be a terrific feeling in the camp and I'm sure they can't wait for the next match.

I think the turning point happened off the pitch when the players held their own inquest after the home defeat against Fleetwood.
The six game unbeaten run happened after that meeting in the changing room with the Shrewsbury game the first of those six.

We are better because of Toums has given us some legs in midfield.

Yes we got a result without Carey but from the highlights, the Sky bloke on Soccer Saturday in the studio (a former league manager) and Radio Devon commentary they all seem to think we were hanging on with Bradford very much on top.

There has never been a question of lack of commitment or effort. That isn't an issue.

Its about the quality of the football and whether its good enough to stay up in league one. Carey wont be scoring wonder goals every week so I look around the team and apart from the odd one from Jervis and Grant I think who is going to score. We have 3 midfielders in Toums, Songo and Fox who you wouldn't put any money on. So where on earth are the goals coming from?

We talk about turning point. The last 3 home LEAGUE games were Fleetwood 1-2, Shrewsbury 1-1 and Rochdale 1-1. We haven't exactly turned the performances or home results around. We have a major issue breaking teams down.

And yet we have turned the corner (apparently). I hope we have but for me I think we are more combative in midfield and our discipline is better but defensively we look brittle and up front still lack punch. The same as we did during our poor run.

This essay is no different to the dozens from last season, when well into March and April you couldn't see how we could possibly get promoted with a team that spent 70% of the match "clinging on for dear life". Sorry to be blunt but you've said it all before, you don't see how we can keep picking up points when the opposition have all the chances.

There is little correlation between number of chances created and points won. Very often in football, the more entertaining side don't win, the more disciplined side will.

Exactly the way we played v Bradford worked all over the division last season, no better than v Doncaster when we soaked it all up and hit them with one set piece goal. We had among the best away form in the country playing no differently to that.

E.g. Burnley. QED.

 

[Biggs]

It's like Shrewsbury. Looked dogey at the back. The goalie looked like he had a mistake in him. Be very surprised if they finish top 6.

How can you be very surprised if they finish top 6 based on one game, when they're 12 points clear of 7th? :crazy: Do you think it's remotely possible that perhaps we stopped them playing well? As we did with Bradford and Blackburn soon after?

All these teams we allowed to play their football. When we did have a go at them they looked vulnerable. Yet Adams worries more about the opposition than what we can do to hurt them.

That's way too simplistic. We operate to a gameplan, and they look vulnerable WHEN we attack because we're countering. All out attack is not sustainable over 90 minutes with the players we have.

Granted, you're absolutely right regarding home games. It's one of Adams' remaining challenges to truly 'get it right' at home :thumbup:

The reason l often post on this is because Adams gets tactical praise for sticking all 10 men behind the ball and defending. Where are the tactics in this? They don't often do anything constructive but stand just outside the penalty box and let the opposition play. We wait whilst they cross or shoot and hope they can't hit or aim for the target they desire. It happened last season and it's continuing to happen this season. Difference is we are 23rd because opposition hurt us more than league two teams could do.

Here's where you lose credibility a little. Are you seriously suggesting that there is nothing constructive or tactically astute in the way that Adams has managed the side in the last 6 games? You're back to your bad old self last season, in which you effectively claimed we were lucky in almost every game. At some point you have to accept that Derek Adams knows more about football than you.

I'm sure you'll counter that point with our league position, but it's becoming increasingly clear that we've turned the corner after a truly nightmare-ish start. I agree that Toums has been a catalyst, but Adams identified that and to turn around the complete basket case that we were deserves immense credit. We all wondered how he'd react when faced with a genuine crisis, and to produce a 6-game unbeaten run out of the bag shows you he has something, no?

I just cannot see why you feel the need to produce yet another enlightening thought-piece coming off that, and may I say during the actual game on Saturday (!). As to your points regarding that game, you didn't even go and passed the usual comments. I listened to the radio and watched the highlights, and we 1) appeared to limit them to long range efforts, and 2) exploited them with a beautiful move to score.

Classic away day performance, and you still find the negatives. Let's celebrate that we're back on track, and pray to the gods of football that we don't bugger it up in the next two home games. Perhaps then a lengthy critique will be in order :thumbs:

 

[Biggs]

I'm not saying we cant survive. Our away form might be good enough to scrap the points playing the style we do. However, if you think you can keep giving teams clear cut chances like Blackburn and Bradford whilst having very little threat going forward and win games in this league then fair play.

And I couldn't ignore this. You were saying the EXACT same thing last season, just replace 'Blackburn and Bradford' with 'Portsmouth and Doncaster'.

As Knibbsworth has already stated, that's Adams' gameplan and it works.

I know what you're going to say, which is that the first 10 games proved that gameplan doesn't work in League 1. I'd submit that it didn't matter one jot what the gameplan was, because our heads were completely gone. Whether that's because of *something we can't discuss* or what, it was a crisis and we appear to have got over it.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

It's like Shrewsbury. Looked dogey at the back. The goalie looked like he had a mistake in him. Be very surprised if they finish top 6.

How can you be very surprised if they finish top 6 based on one game, when they're 12 points clear of 7th? :crazy: Do you think it's remotely possible that perhaps we stopped them playing well? As we did with Bradford and Blackburn soon after?

All these teams we allowed to play their football. When we did have a go at them they looked vulnerable. Yet Adams worries more about the opposition than what we can do to hurt them.

That's way too simplistic. We operate to a gameplan, and they look vulnerable WHEN we attack because we're countering. All out attack is not sustainable over 90 minutes with the players we have.

Granted, you're absolutely right regarding home games. It's one of Adams' remaining challenges to truly 'get it right' at home :thumbup:

The reason l often post on this is because Adams gets tactical praise for sticking all 10 men behind the ball and defending. Where are the tactics in this? They don't often do anything constructive but stand just outside the penalty box and let the opposition play. We wait whilst they cross or shoot and hope they can't hit or aim for the target they desire. It happened last season and it's continuing to happen this season. Difference is we are 23rd because opposition hurt us more than league two teams could do.

Here's where you lose credibility a little. Are you seriously suggesting that there is nothing constructive or tactically astute in the way that Adams has managed the side in the last 6 games? You're back to your bad old self last season, in which you effectively claimed we were lucky in almost every game. At some point you have to accept that Derek Adams knows more about football than you.

I'm sure you'll counter that point with our league position, but it's becoming increasingly clear that we've turned the corner after a truly nightmare-ish start. I agree that Toums has been a catalyst, but Adams identified that and to turn around the complete basket case that we were deserves immense credit. We all wondered how he'd react when faced with a genuine crisis, and to produce a 6-game unbeaten run out of the bag shows you he has something, no?

I just cannot see why you feel the need to produce yet another enlightening thought-piece coming off that, and may I say during the actual game on Saturday (!). As to your points regarding that game, you didn't even go and passed the usual comments. I listened to the radio and watched the highlights, and we 1) appeared to limit them to long range efforts, and 2) exploited them with a beautiful move to score.

Classic away day performance, and you still find the negatives. Let's celebrate that we're back on track, and pray to the gods of football that we don't bugger it up in the next two home games. Perhaps then a lengthy critique will be in order :thumbs:

It's a personal opinion. I watched Shrewsbury and l thought Charlton and Scunthorpe for example, were much better sides. I believe Wigan will finish top 2 because of their resources and their manager.

It's not "way too simplistic". If you had a bet on Argyle at home for each first half of games that it would be 0-0 by the end of 45mins you have a decent chance of winning the bet because we hardly start games off the front foot. Rochdale was an exception, but even then for then next 40 mins we retreated and allowed them back in the game. Most teams have come down to HP and started the better and grabbed the initiative because we just sit back.

If you watch closely see how the opposition defence and midfield players have all the time and space to do what they want with the ball. Even when they get in our half their is no pressing. A perfect example was Fleetwood no 2 for the first 45 mins who was allowed to put in quality cross after cross. It keeps on happening in different games I've watched. That isn't a tactical master plan. It's bad defending. It happened last year in many games, Leyton Orient, Blackpool etc...we just never got stuck into these teams. You talk about DA turning around the home form. It's as bad this year as it was last year. He didn't turn it around then. In fact it got worse, as the season went on, apart from that Newport drubbing.

I'm balancing the opinion that Argyle have turned the corner. I think my arguments are just as valid as opinions on why people seem to think we have improved. If Argyle were honestly playing better l would say so. However, the best performance at HP that lve seen this season remains the second 45mins of the Charlton game. Not because we won. But because we were on the front foot. In their faces. Sarcevic in particular was excellent for that for 45 mins. Yet apart from odd 10-15 min spells at HP where is that type of performance gone? We sit back like lambs to the slaughter at HP.

Where both you Biggs and Knibbswoth don't see it is that Adams says we are too attacking at HP. Too attacking, good grief. He thinks we are too open. So 10 men behind the ball defending inside their own half for most of the opening 45 mins of games with nobody in an Argyle shirt inside the opposition half is too attacking is it?? We must be watching a different game.

I will give credit to Adams and Argyle when it's justified. I have done. In fact if you go back to his first season in charge when we had that terrible run l was very much of the opinion he had a excellent first season even though we didn't get promoted because given the short pre-season he had the team he was building looked to be progressing. However, from after Christmas last season it became apparent "his style of play". Our short comings are just repeative. If you look at the defeats last season and this then you see similarities as to why we lost particular games. I don't know how people can criticise Sheridan for his dour tactics and not Adams. Under Sheridan the argument was we don't look like coming from behind and winning a game. The same has to be said about a team currently under Adams. It's ok if we score the first goal. Yet what happens when we don't? Where is the plan B, especially away from home?

If we play well against Oxford and Northampton then l will say it. Despite what you two may perceive about me l have no agenda here. I like Adams. He is fiesty and hard working. l would like him to succeed. I just wish he cut off the BS after games we haven't played well in because it does him no favours. Adams style won't change. Our opinions therefore on him won't change.

 

[castlegreen]

We were way too attacking against Scunthorpe - down to 10men against a good team we lost all discipline and shape - and the resultant mauling seemed to get to the players and all confidence seemed to drain away

Toums has made a difference - but credit must go to Adams as at least we seem to have some fight now - I am an eternal optimist, but even I was losing faith