Who really should be blamed?

[fishypilgrim]

Do you know for a fact that there is no plan in place for paying off the final payment in October 2016
Are you expecting us to spend out considerable sums that we don't have to supply enough of the footballing side as you say
Do you feel that our squad is or at least should be better than the squad we had at this time last year .
Do you feel that actually if we played the game the way we have shown we can ( Exeter ,Orient excepting the first 40 minutes ) we would be pushing the teams at the top of the table .
Do you know for a fact that PCC are "bailing him out" with regards to the grandstand . Actually they are the ground owners and therefore the landlords of the football club and potentially have a duty to provide a facility suitable for for purpose . At some point the stand may become unsafe for its purpose and need to be replaced anyway .

 

[Ollieargyle9]

You're right Ollie. He can't win as he can't deliver on any front beyond league two safety. He and Argyle are a marriage made in hell. He's unable to fulfil any developments, he's unable to salvage a plan to pay off the balloon payment, he's unable to supply enough of the footballing front for a promotion winning side. We're in a state of total limbo with Brent at the helm, not one of us knows the direction we're heading with him - although right now I'd say it's not heading for the better...

I don't want him to fail and never have, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that we're going nowhere under his control and I do feel its time for him to search for alternative owners (they were around in January by his own words, it's an avenue to explore). Apparently the PCC are bailing him out with regards to the Grandstand. Let's hope, as he's always said himself, that the club becomes a more attractive acquisition for a greater potential owner with a new and true GRANDstand. There's a whole lot of crossing fingers involved with following Argyle...

That's not what I said and what you've posted here is nothing more than scaremongering nonsense to which I referred to in my first post :sigh:

 

[happydays69]

Well said . no matter who we have as manager and i know his responsibility is the team, it won't make any difference if they are not backed up by the club (i.e. Directors Chairman etc

We seem to be a club that lacks ambition, have we heard the members of the board trying to promote this club.

I maybe wrong but why did we loose our Captain, he can't be on mega money i think it was lack of ambition by the club that made him move.
Tony Pullis when he was manager said complete the stand and i can tell players the club is moving forward as a club.

Now we see a dilapidated ground, poor training facilities, Torquay training facilities are much superior .

I know money talks in this day and age, but you need a good Captain and crew to move a ship forwards.

 

[tonycholwell]

You're right Ollie. He can't win as he can't deliver on any front beyond league two safety. He and Argyle are a marriage made in hell. He's unable to fulfil any developments, he's unable to salvage a plan to pay off the balloon payment, he's unable to supply enough of the footballing front for a promotion winning side. We're in a state of total limbo with Brent at the helm, not one of us knows the direction we're heading with him - although right now I'd say it's not heading for the better...

I don't want him to fail and never have, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that we're going nowhere under his control and I do feel its time for him to search for alternative owners (they were around in January by his own words, it's an avenue to explore). Apparently the PCC are bailing him out with regards to the Grandstand. Let's hope, as he's always said himself, that the club becomes a more attractive acquisition for a greater potential owner with a new and true GRANDstand. There's a whole lot of crossing fingers involved with following Argyle...

Sam

I always read what you say with interest. But it does concern me that phrases such as "PCC bailing him out" and "a true GRANDstand" are used by you and others when there is no evidence that either statement is correct.

I would argue that PCC as the landlord owe Argyle a decent Grandstand as they promised over a decade ago. From memory, the Barr stand would have taken our capacity to 18,600 (?) or thereabouts but like other promises we are still waiting. Irony being, back then there was no argument over capacity under 20k, oh how times change. So I would argue, rather than "bailing" Argyle out PCC were belatedly fulfilling their promises.

Bearing in mind my last paragraph, I would be interested in your definition of "GRANDstand". I would also ask if you know if the PCC proposals will in fact complete the ground? i ask this as one possibility is for PCC to fund only a like for like replacement but include the Mayflower terracing. That obviously would leave the corners unattached. It would also keep the cost down!

Hopefully, we will all be put out of our agony shortly and find out the details

 

[pilgrimage]

Who's to blame , Brent , his plans for the club have failed,without out any income to supplement the football side of things we can look forward to seasons middle table nothingness , I hope he's seeking new buyers, the apathy at the club is the worst I've known!

And whose going to make the balloon payment when it's due?

 

[SWTT]

Hi Tony,

Apparently is the key word when I mentioned the PCC bailing Brent out, as I am aware that this is currently no more than a rumour and speculation. I don't disagree with you that the PCC perhaps have a duty to supply the new grandstand, but theyre only potentially stepping in now because of Brent's failure to get his hodge podge idea up and running.

The emphasis on grand is pure hope that the PCC's rumoured alternative may perhaps be more fitting with ambition than reductionism. I'm not going to hide the fact that it's a dig at Brent's plan, the size and limited expansion I'm totally against. If we talk hypothetical on the new stand, I'd personally accept a smaller initial capacity if intent to expand was planned into the design (make expansion as viable as possible). Or I'd accept a lack of expansion opportunity if the initial size took us up to a minimum capacity of roughly 21000 as it once was. Our end goal shouldn't be lower than our capacity of 10 years ago.

Im becoming increasingly frustrated by the lack of action to turn us back into a respected football club again, and I'm confident I'm not alone in this. I'm incredibly passionate about Plymouth Argyle, but becoming increasingly disheartened by this current club.

Fishy, it's all my own opinion formed from my own observations and I totally feel that this Argyle team is much better than their performances so far. We've seen what they can do against sides when they try and play football, I don't think Sheridan is blameless. Nor are the players, nor is the chairman.

Ollie, it's not scaremongering nonsense. A short term solution to a long term issue is to point the finger at the manager. I don't feel sole blame lies at his doorstep, but a greater deal of the finger pointing should be aimed further up the Argyle heirachy. That's my opinion, and I appreciate that you won't see eye to eye with it, but I'm seeing little that persuades me otherwise.

 

[fishypilgrim]

Sam

That's all great and to be honest is what every Argyle fan would want . However could you put together a plan to acheive everything that you ( and I and Ollie 9 and every body else ) want .

 

[IJN]

I agree with parts of that Sam, but I repeat all I want, and it probably is an age thing, is something built that we can replace the Mayflower Steps with.

As a pal of JB's I'm sorry IF the HHP isn't going ahead as he planned it to but IF the rumours are right, and we do have a new GS to look forward to, them I'm a chuffed little bunny.

What I'd like to see is this thing built and the outstanding debt to be paid, when that happens, I'll be happy.

PAFC has been around for a very long time and I want it to be around for the future, I look at Hereford at the moment and think how close to becoming the basket they are.

I think most fair minded people would say that if someone had said 4/5 years ago that PAFC in 2016 would have a new GS, no remaining debt (let us pray) from the shame of admin we'd be fairly happy.

The fact that we have a good team, that doesn't seem to be playing good, or in the right position is an annoyance to most of us, but perhaps that's only a temporary thing (in a timeline of 130 years).

When JB leaves, which he one day undoubtedly will, Argyle fans can moan at him/her, just like we did with Stapleton, Mac666, Stuart Dawe (aka the Cornish Mafia), Peter Bloom and Ron Blundell.

 

[SWTT]

I'm with you that something needs to be done Ian, but I'm personally not in a mindset to accept any proposal that comes along if detrimental to the long term ambitions of the club. Thats my biggest gripe with HHP, the expansion limitations and why I can't support it. Truth be told I'm relieved that it seems to not be going ahead. That's not me saying that I think Brent is the master of all evil, he seemed as good a bloke as anyone to step forth and deliver what this club requires and deserves, but I've lost confidence in him as an owner.

 

[GreenSam]

I agree with parts of that Sam, but I repeat all I want, and it probably is an age thing, is something built that we can replace the Mayflower Steps with.

As a pal of JB's I'm sorry IF the HHP isn't going ahead as he planned it to but IF the rumours are right, and we do have a new GS to look forward to, them I'm a chuffed little bunny.

What I'd like to see is this thing built and the outstanding debt to be paid, when that happens, I'll be happy.

PAFC has been around for a very long time and I want it to be around for the future, I look at Hereford at the moment and think how close to becoming the basket they are.

I think most fair minded people would say that if someone had said 4/5 years ago that PAFC in 2016 would have a new GS, no remaining debt (let us pray) from the shame of admin we'd be fairly happy.

The fact that we have a good team, that doesn't seem to be playing good, or in the right position is an annoyance to most of us, but perhaps that's only a temporary thing (in a timeline of 130 years).

When JB leaves, which he one day undoubtedly will, Argyle fans can moan at him/her, just like we did with Stapleton, Mac666, Stuart Dawe (aka the Cornish Mafia), Peter Bloom and Ron Blundell.

I think it'd be incredibly ambitious if we really were to have no remaining debt by 2016. We currently owe:

-Still an enormous amount to football creditors/the development Trust and other pre-admin creditors
-An enormous amount to James Brent and Tony Wrathall who've bailed the club out over the past 3 years when we've been making a loss
-A substantial amount to the GTs who have sped up the historic debt payment to those who are in need of it most.

Whilst no-one knows the ins and outs of the council situation for certain, I'd be very surprised if that didn't involve some kind of vastly increased rent for the building of the ground which whilst not debt is as good as debt in every practical sense.

Hope you're right but if we're in any sense debt free by 1st January 2017 then I'll be shocked. We may not have as much pressing debt but debt is debt.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

I agree with parts of that Sam, but I repeat all I want, and it probably is an age thing, is something built that we can replace the Mayflower Steps with.

As a pal of JB's I'm sorry IF the HHP isn't going ahead as he planned it to but IF the rumours are right, and we do have a new GS to look forward to, them I'm a chuffed little bunny.

What I'd like to see is this thing built and the outstanding debt to be paid, when that happens, I'll be happy.

PAFC has been around for a very long time and I want it to be around for the future, I look at Hereford at the moment and think how close to becoming the basket they are.

I think most fair minded people would say that if someone had said 4/5 years ago that PAFC in 2016 would have a new GS, no remaining debt (let us pray) from the shame of admin we'd be fairly happy.

The fact that we have a good team, that doesn't seem to be playing good, or in the right position is an annoyance to most of us, but perhaps that's only a temporary thing (in a timeline of 130 years).

When JB leaves, which he one day undoubtedly will, Argyle fans can moan at him/her, just like we did with Stapleton, Mac666, Stuart Dawe (aka the Cornish Mafia), Peter Bloom and Ron Blundell.

What if the supposed good team we have isn't suffering a blip in form. What if the problem is a combination of things? What happens if we get pulled into another relegation scrap bearing in mind we are only 4 points now from safety?

The problem is he is the man at the top supposedly steering this ship. I think I am fair minded but I don't think by 2016 if this team isn't competing for a playoff spot that people would be happy.

The trouble is Brent appears to be the only solution. Yet really does that make him a good solution? It seems like that getting things over the line in a limited way, eg the building of the grandstand, is now a plan? Maybe I am the only one but I would rather wait and build something that we don't look back and think that is somewhat substandard. That we regret that from a blank canvas we didn't have ambitions because we didn't have enough money. If we don't have the money to build something that can benefit Argyle and the community around then don't build it.

Its all very short term the thinking. Lets make sure its built and clear the debt.......but at what cost?

Its the same thinking that got us in the mess in the first place. I remember yourself and others were banging on about Stapleton and what a great job he had been doing for his year on year improvement. Yet there was never any long term strategy. All he thought about was the short term so that Argyle became more of a saleable asset that he could make a tidy profit on. He didn't care in the end who we got sold too.

Maybe Brent will care but you get the impression we are making the same mistakes again.

The plan seems to be lets build, complete and tick that box off because we built the new GS. The problem is four or five years down the line he probably wont be in charge and we might just have a new GS and facilities not functioning the way they should because we cut costs and therefore corners.

I rather not have the GS built until its proven that we will obtain top class facilities from it. We have a blank canvas and once rebuilding does get underway we cant go back. PAFC and the South-West deserves first class facilities, in a first class stadium. I just not convinced Brent can deliver this.

 

[Mork]

Who's to blame , Brent , his plans for the club have failed,without out any income to supplement the football side of things we can look forward to seasons middle table nothingness , I hope he's seeking new buyers, the apathy at the club is the worst I've known!

And whose going to make the balloon payment when it's due?

Thats my point, his plan has failed so he should be seeking new buyers or he needs to explain now his alternative plan.

 

[IJN]

I remember yourself and others were banging on about Stapleton and what a great job he had been doing for his year on year improvement.

To put back into context, that was when others wanted a slice of the action after two Championships in three years.

They were nowhere to be seen when we were stuck in the fourth for five years were they.

Which brings us back to where we are now. I'd love JB to sell to a person with £millions to spend on our wonderful club. There are many other things I'd like but I'll never ever see them happen.

Dream all you want, I certainly do, but don't start believing that it will happen, if you do, you'll be disappointed I fear.

 

[satfan]

I hope we are actively seeking new owners if Orient who are not and do not have the fanbase to be a big club can, then surely if we earnestly sought one advertise in far east Europe America etc and can sell the potential we have stand a chance otherwise i fear the next 10 years will continue with the same dross

 

[Quizmike]

Orient have played in the top division. Also they are in London which means 100x more potential than a city with no airport.

We have already had an Eastern investor if you remember?