Jack Leslie Square: Update Updated

[The Doctor]

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but the evidence is all there.

:funny: :funny: :funny:

I dont know what that's all about, sounds like a 12 year old, but whatever...

I fully support putting a statue up and even renaming one of the roads or pathways after Jack, but the council are using this to support the BLM agenda, which is crazy, but then again that's labour for you.
Why any argyle fan would prefer Jack Leslie to be commemorated in a backstreet square that's usually occupied by a group of alcoholics and drug abusers instead of Home park is beyond me.

I think your last sentence kind of misses the point. People don’t advocate the square being named after Jack Leslie because they are Argyle fans, they do so because they want to draw attention to racism by highlighting Leslie’s story. And the fact that the square isn’t close to Home Park means that it is more likely to impact on people who don’t already know that story because they are not actually interested in Argyle or connected with the club in anyway.

It’s also important to note that the name of the square wasn’t changed from Hawkins to Leslie. It was un-named Hawkins and then quite separately the suggestion to name it after Leslie was made when the opportunity to do so was realised.

 

[The Doctor]

Btw this is the definition for imposing marxism:
'Marxism advocates violent overthrow initially to achieve its aims. While it claims to create a utopian society once that overthrow is over, such a sudden change cannot be sustained without fearmongering and violence.'

That’s not a definition of Marxism. It might be one author’s comment on how they think Marxism could be imposed and their opinion of what could happen of it was. But you could switch the word ‘Marxism’ for anything else really. At the very least a definition of Marxism must surely make some reference to the works of Karl Marx.

What is the source you have taken that quote from?

 

[signalspast]

Just for clarity.
I started the petition.
I'm not a student.
I am left wing and happy to say so. I'm not sure if being left wing makes me a Marxist... I suspect in some people's opinion it probably does.
I'm not a 'member' of BLM. It's news to me that you can be a member apparently.
I raised the petition as a response to the covering up / grafittying of the Hawkins sign. I acted individually without discussing it with anyone else.
It was obviously going to come down so I thought, why not use the opportunity to suggest Jack Leslie, a positive story.
At the time I set up the petition I was unaware of the statue campaign. I'd still raise the petition anyway.
I wasn't trying to make a political statement, I just saw an opportunity to promote Jack's story.
I think we should be made aware of our past, even if it contains shameful deeds like those committed by Hawkins. But I don't think a street sign really tells you an awful lot about a person? Except they were apparently worthy of a street sign (put up in the 80s and controversial ever since).
IMO Hawkins doesn't deserve a square named after him. Jack Leslie does. Pretty simple.
Hope that clears it up

I know some students who have written in to the council, they may not have declared themselves as students, but they are.
Up the line, I have read some of your comments when argyle play badly or lose, now hearing this you have sunk even lower in my estimation.
I'm open to hear any opinion and weigh it up with unbiased judgement, but I think I had you sussed out a long time ago. You've ignored the details I posted in my 1st and 2nd comments as most leftwing protagonists do, and I will say I have many leftwing friends, but even they know full well the BLM agenda and dont approve of it.
Btw BLM are now a political party, so it is political bias.
I love my black friends, but not BLM who dont care about black people. All they care about is fulfilling their leftwing marxist agenda.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ehind-attempt-to-use-name-for-political-party

It's interesting that you chose the guardian newspaper article given the nature of the subject. A newspaper that was established by a mill owner that backed the slave trade and the south in the american civil war.l Should the paper be shut down because of its roots to the slave trade.

 

[Vampires11]

BTW, Jack Leslie was NEVER chosen to play for England, he was picked as a travelling reserve, and then disappeared from that position for no apparent reason. There is ZERO proof it was racially motivated, although it most likely was.

While we are dismantling history - because of course in the 1500's racism was thought of the same as in the 2020's, why not start a petition or write to Joe Biden for every statue, state name street name etc etc to be removed or changed if linked to slave owners or traders?? There were only the 12 American presidents who owned slaves, and I'm sure the good people of the USA would agree?? You can start with George Washington, then carry on through the rest

 

[IJN]

Meanwhile back at the ranch Jack will be present at Home Park again at the MK Dons match. :scarf:

Paid for by some of the Pasoti members.



I do hope someone accuses me of having some Marxist leftie leanings. :lol:

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

BTW, Jack Leslie was NEVER chosen to play for England, he was picked as a travelling reserve, and then disappeared from that position for no apparent reason. There is ZERO proof it was racially motivated, although it most likely was.

While we are dismantling history - because of course in the 1500's racism was thought of the same as in the 2020's, why not start a petition or write to Joe Biden for every statue, state name street name etc etc to be removed or changed if linked to slave owners or traders?? There were only the 12 American presidents who owned slaves, and I'm sure the good people of the USA would agree?? You can start with George Washington, then carry on through the rest

Leslie himself said that his place went to Jack Walker of Aston Villa for that game against Ireland. Records show that Walker had captained England in their previous match, had missed just one England game in the previous 18 months but hadn't played for Villa in the two weeks prior to the international. Walker was obviously an established international.

It is most likely that Jack Leslie was called up to cover for a player carrying an injury. When the call ups for England's next game FIVE months later were announced, Leslie wasn't included.

The way I was originally told the story, I was given the impression that the time span between being called up and then dropped was over a matter of days rather than five months which would make the story more dramatic.

One thing is for certain, Jack Leslie was the first but he was by no means the last. In total SEVEN black players have received England call ups but never earned a single cap. Now that's a tough trivia question for someone to answer.

 

[IJN]

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/p ... th-4892282


:lol: :clap:

 

[Quintrell Green]

Sir John Hawkins has family descendents living in Cornwall now. It is ironic that not a peep has been heard from them yet the chap from Mutley, Plymouth has been making big noises on this issue. I just hope PCC can 'put it all to bed' swiftly and we all move on.

 

[Pogleswoody]

Sir John Hawkins has family descendents living in Cornwall now. It is ironic that not a peep has been heard from them yet the chap from Mutley, Plymouth has been making big noises on this issue. I just hope PCC can 'put it all to bed' swiftly and we all move on.

That will be the man from Mutley, Plymouth who was the man from Bolton, Lancs.? I suppose Bolton is so free. liberal and non racist that he had to come down here to fight the good fight?

 

[gaspargomez]

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/man-who-tried-stop-plymouth-4892282


:lol: :clap:

Danny Bamping is barking up the wrong tree trying to challenge the Council on the legal process of re-naming the the street. I'm sure they have done that correctly (the court agrees) and he's probably wasting his money trying to pursue that angle any further. His point seems to be more political in nature- he's complaing about the decison to re-name square which he considers to have been made on an arbitary basis. Thats a more legitimate point- but he's going about it all the wrong way.

Personally, I think the Council were wrong to re-name John Hawkins Square because it was always going to attract controversy. It almost detracts from Jack Leslie because now his name is being associated with BLM and all these legal wranglings. That seems unfair to me. If the Council wanted to name something after Jack Leslie then make it a NEW street or public square. That would more prestigious and would be far less controversial.

 

[briangreen]

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/man-who-tried-stop-plymouth-4892282


:lol: :clap:

Danny Bamping is barking up the wrong tree trying to challenge the Council on the legal process of re-naming the the street. I'm sure they have done that correctly (the court agrees) and he's probably wasting his money trying to pursue that angle any further. His point seems to be more political in nature- he's complaing about the decison to re-name square which he considers to have been made on an arbitary basis. Thats a more legitimate point- but he's going about it all the wrong way.

Personally, I think the Council were wrong to re-name John Hawkins Square because it was always going to attract controversy. It almost detracts from Jack Leslie because now his name is being associated with BLM and all these legal wranglings. That seems unfair to me. If the Council wanted to name something after Jack Leslie then make it a NEW street or public square. That would more prestigious and would be far less controversial.

Been out of it for a while, but back then there was talk of a statue of Jack being put up near the stadium and then some local and not so local idiots got involved, because of a belief that BLM actually care about black people and are not a group of politically motivated marxists and once again the labour dominated PCC collapse in a heap to the demands of what are 18 year old students and a bunch of ex hippies :crazy:
In all truth it's badly dividing us, let's just put a blo-dy statue up....

 

[Keith Whitfield]

One of the proudest boasts our football club can make is that it stood firm against a vicious body of opinion that vilified black people amongst many others and recruited a black player to its ranks at a time when many other clubs would not dare go anywhere near such an action.

These were the days when Mosley's blackshirts walked the streets and tried to persuade by (mostly foul) means the population of Britain to take our country the way of Nazi Germany. Luckily, they failed miserably.

In this environment, Jack Leslie was subjected to substantial abuse, as he amply repaid our club for its courage with match-winning performances and many goals. His dignity shone through, and he impressed many who knew him, including my grandfather.

He deserves a statue in his honour and the recognition of having a place in our civic centre named after him. We should be proud, not just of him but of the club that had the moral strength to recruit him and the city that gave him a safe haven to do what he did best - play beautiful football.

 

[Bernie Bernbaum]

Well said Keith.

 

[gaspargomez]

I'd like to see a tribute to Bob Jack somewhere.
He did make a very big contribution to the club in the early years and deserves more recognition. Looking at things rationally, he's probably the Argyle character who deserves a statue the most.