Lowe Decides Defence Is Priority!!!

[gaspargomez]

The large number of goals conceded this season is not just down to the players.

Its also due to the wide open, expansive formation that Lowe uses.

This may work well in League Two when managing well funded teams (Bury and Argyle) because your players can largely outplay the opposition and retain possession. But in League One, where the Argyle team is more evenly matched, it is a far riskier strategy.

This is why the likes of Sturrock and Warnock have always played with defence as the main priority. It can be boring to watch (especially when the team aren’t winning) but its a tried and tested strategy. Under Lowe, Argyle have become a bit reckless I think.

 

[jerryatricjanner]

But 12 months ago we had one of the best defences in League Two - the most clean sheets and only three other teams conceding less goals - so Lowe can be forgiven for giving new contracts to Sawyer, Canavan and Wootton, especially with the uncertainty caused by Covid.

The mistake was made in January by not replacing experienced departing defenders Canavan and Wooton (and long term injured Sawyer) with similar experienced defenders. Instead Woods was signed followed by Lewis.

Stats cannot lie but a lot of those who witnessed our defence last year had the jitters every time the opposition attacked and boy did we ride out luck. Canavan was best of a bad bunch but even last season we were outdone for pace but poor finishing by other teams meant we were not punished as often as this season.

That's true, Oldy, every time someone repeats that the statistics from last season prove that our defence was top notch, I shake my head. The combination of poor finishing, Palmer and pure luck really did disguise our shortcomings of pace and positional awareness at the back.

....and that is why using stats in football is pointless especially in recruitment. The only way you would know our defence was gash was if you had seen it. People who advocate their use say that its how you interpret the data. Well, I would argue that you could only interpret the data on our defensive side in one way i.e. it was very good, and we all know that wasn't the case. Just look at the stats that are recorded during an actual match; number of dangerous attacks, number of corners, number of shots on target etc, etc and then you find the team thats supposedly dominating loses 1-0 or 2-0.

Like I've said before, Mk1 eyeball is the only way. Your eyes will not lie to you whereas stats certainly will. Using stats is both costly and lazy and when its used for recruitment, It limits our search area. We will not see the little nuggets in non-league or playing for University sides or the Armed Forces etc.

Rather a sweeping statement to say using stats is pointless. Are you suggesting you know more than people in the football business right up to the highest level? Of course stats use isn't pointless, it might not prove everything but it surely has some point or why do virtually all clubs at a professional level use it to varying degrees?

 

[argyleforever]

Nobody has mentioned the fact we have a youth keeper in goal this season?? Yeah hes pulled off some great saves but he's no Luke McCormick when it comes to organising and marshalling the defence is he!!

 

[Knibbsworth]

There is a big gulf in quality between League Two and League One. Wootton was just about competent in League Two but resembled a pub footballer in League One.

RL wouldn't necessarily have realised that when he offered him a new contract. Likewise Canavan. The memory of him and Wootton conceding goal after goal at home to the mighty Rochdale will be hard to forget.

Lowe's problem this season was thinking all he had to do was recruit ball-playing centre-backs from the Premier League and we'd suddenly be playing like Man City. It didn't work, and he'll be all too aware now that in the lower leagues you need to prioritise other attributes over being able to accurately side-foot a ground pass 10 yards to a DM or WB.

Whatever you think of Wootton and Canavan, we played better when they were about in the first half of the season than we are playing now.

 

[oldage]

But 12 months ago we had one of the best defences in League Two - the most clean sheets and only three other teams conceding less goals - so Lowe can be forgiven for giving new contracts to Sawyer, Canavan and Wootton, especially with the uncertainty caused by Covid.

The mistake was made in January by not replacing experienced departing defenders Canavan and Wooton (and long term injured Sawyer) with similar experienced defenders. Instead Woods was signed followed by Lewis.

Stats cannot lie but a lot of those who witnessed our defence last year had the jitters every time the opposition attacked and boy did we ride out luck. Canavan was best of a bad bunch but even last season we were outdone for pace but poor finishing by other teams meant we were not punished as often as this season.

That's true, Oldy, every time someone repeats that the statistics from last season prove that our defence was top notch, I shake my head. The combination of poor finishing, Palmer and pure luck really did disguise our shortcomings of pace and positional awareness at the back.

....and that is why using stats in football is pointless especially in recruitment. The only way you would know our defence was gash was if you had seen it. People who advocate their use say that its how you interpret the data. Well, I would argue that you could only interpret the data on our defensive side in one way i.e. it was very good, and we all know that wasn't the case. Just look at the stats that are recorded during an actual match; number of dangerous attacks, number of corners, number of shots on target etc, etc and then you find the team thats supposedly dominating loses 1-0 or 2-0.

Like I've said before, Mk1 eyeball is the only way. Your eyes will not lie to you whereas stats certainly will. Using stats is both costly and lazy and when its used for recruitment, It limits our search area. We will not see the little nuggets in non-league or playing for University sides or the Armed Forces etc.

Rather a sweeping statement to say using stats is pointless. Are you suggesting you know more than people in the football business right up to the highest level? Of course stats use isn't pointless, it might not prove everything but it surely has some point or why do virtually all clubs at a professional level use it to varying degrees?

Daft question maybe but if the data is available to all managers surely everybody knows who the best players are and will try to sign them? Data is a useful tool but should not be the overriding consideration when signing players.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

There is a big gulf in quality between League Two and League One. Wootton was just about competent in League Two but resembled a pub footballer in League One.

RL wouldn't necessarily have realised that when he offered him a new contract. Likewise Canavan. The memory of him and Wootton conceding goal after goal at home to the mighty Rochdale will be hard to forget.

Lowe's problem this season was thinking all he had to do was recruit ball-playing centre-backs from the Premier League and we'd suddenly be playing like Man City. It didn't work, and he'll be all too aware now that in the lower leagues you need to prioritise other attributes over being able to accurately side-foot a ground pass 10 yards to a DM or WB.

Whatever you think of Wootton and Canavan, we played better when they were about in the first half of the season than we are playing now.

I think debating who is better - the young lads currently in our defence or Wootton and Canavan - is a pointless exercise. We've been crap at the back all season long and big changes are needed both in terms of experience and ability.

 

[greenpilled]

There is a big gulf in quality between League Two and League One. Wootton was just about competent in League Two but resembled a pub footballer in League One.

RL wouldn't necessarily have realised that when he offered him a new contract. Likewise Canavan. The memory of him and Wootton conceding goal after goal at home to the mighty Rochdale will be hard to forget.

Lowe's problem this season was thinking all he had to do was recruit ball-playing centre-backs from the Premier League and we'd suddenly be playing like Man City. It didn't work, and he'll be all too aware now that in the lower leagues you need to prioritise other attributes over being able to accurately side-foot a ground pass 10 yards to a DM or WB.

Whatever you think of Wootton and Canavan, we played better when they were about in the first half of the season than we are playing now.

I think debating who is better - the young lads currently in our defence or Wootton and Canavan - is a pointless exercise. We've been crap at the back all season long and big changes are needed both in terms of experience and ability.

Yes - it would certainly be hard to argue that we'd have made the playoffs if we'd kept Wootton and Canavan, and we haven't been relegated without them. Letting them go in January probably saved us a substantial amount of money that can now be put towards strengthening for the long term.

 

[ealinggreen]

But 12 months ago we had one of the best defences in League Two - the most clean sheets and only three other teams conceding less goals - so Lowe can be forgiven for giving new contracts to Sawyer, Canavan and Wootton, especially with the uncertainty caused by Covid.

The mistake was made in January by not replacing experienced departing defenders Canavan and Wooton (and long term injured Sawyer) with similar experienced defenders. Instead Woods was signed followed by Lewis.

I think this is a great example that shows that data doesn't show a weakness in the team. It doesn't show actually how many times Palmer saved us and how less the clinical the forwards are in the league. Perfect example was Mansfield's Town CJ Hamilton and the numerous chances he had in the first half against us.

There is no way our defence last season was one of the best. The lack of pace and positional sense at times caused us many issues.

Amazing you are apparently capable of analysing all of our opponents defensive qualities without any reference to their stats.

 

[Nobby]

But 12 months ago we had one of the best defences in League Two - the most clean sheets and only three other teams conceding less goals - so Lowe can be forgiven for giving new contracts to Sawyer, Canavan and Wootton, especially with the uncertainty caused by Covid.

The mistake was made in January by not replacing experienced departing defenders Canavan and Wooton (and long term injured Sawyer) with similar experienced defenders. Instead Woods was signed followed by Lewis.

I think this is a great example that shows that data doesn't show a weakness in the team. It doesn't show actually how many times Palmer saved us and how less the clinical the forwards are in the league. Perfect example was Mansfield's Town CJ Hamilton and the numerous chances he had in the first half against us.

There is no way our defence last season was one of the best. The lack of pace and positional sense at times caused us many issues.

I mean, you have literally described the expected goals model. So yes, there is a stat that tells how clinical or not clinical teams were and whether or not the Defence got away it.

 

[ealinggreen]

All well & good stating the b******y obvious

Will the upgrade & calibre of incoming defender be a surprise to us- that is the question

He can harp on as much as he likes- my major concern/ issue is if he fails to get his targets (in the defensive area) he will revert to type & he will use the premier league kid merry go round to obtain players for those areas

Well if he cannot get his targets what is he supposed to do? I am pretty sure he will sign the best that he can but if other clubs want his targets it may be financially challenging to sign them. That is not his fault ,every manager who has managed Argyle complain that its difficult to attract the right players, the right players are wanted by others. Eventually you are left getting who you can.

 

[EyeOpener]

....and that is why using stats in football is pointless especially in recruitment. The only way you would know our defence was gash was if you had seen it. People who advocate their use say that its how you interpret the data. Well, I would argue that you could only interpret the data on our defensive side in one way i.e. it was very good, and we all know that wasn't the case. Just look at the stats that are recorded during an actual match; number of dangerous attacks, number of corners, number of shots on target etc, etc and then you find the team thats supposedly dominating loses 1-0 or 2-0.

Like I've said before, Mk1 eyeball is the only way. Your eyes will not lie to you whereas stats certainly will. Using stats is both costly and lazy and when its used for recruitment, It limits our search area. We will not see the little nuggets in non-league or playing for University sides or the Armed Forces etc.

Rather a sweeping statement to say using stats is pointless. Are you suggesting you know more than people in the football business right up to the highest level? Of course stats use isn't pointless, it might not prove everything but it surely has some point or why do virtually all clubs at a professional level use it to varying degrees?

It isn't football we're talking about though JJ. Football is a game played on grass by human beings and not numbers, trends etc in a database. Its just another 'thing' that the business is looking at to gain an edge much like signing up with the Turmeric Company. Just because something is new and is different, it doesn't mean that its any good and/or does the job. From what I have seen so far using data to influence who we recruit is not working out for us at all.

The people we have recruited that are performing really well in my opinion are the likes of Ennis, Camara and Edwards and these are players that Lowe and Dewsnip know and have worked with. Imo, its a complete waste of time and money for a club like ours especially when you consider our geographical location.

 

[davie nine]

Nobody has mentioned the fact we have a youth keeper in goal this season?? Yeah hes pulled off some great saves but he's no Luke McCormick when it comes to organising and marshalling the defence is he!!

Maybe, nobody has mentioned the fact because McCormick never had to play behind the type of defence that our ‘youth keeper’ has been required to organise and marshall.
I, genuinely, believe that if Coops had been our main keeper in 2018/9, we would not have been relegated and it was DEFINITELY the correct decision to make him our number 1 this season and he has proved it.

 

[Andy B.]

The guy cant win can he? Hes talked openly about what we need. If he had kept quiet and not said what we need he would get castigated for that too.

Next season is a watershed for Lowe and his tenure.

We have enough options going forward but midfield and defence obviously needs a rebuild.

If we can sign the correct players - physical and ball playing players we can have a good go at making play offs.

Let's see who arrives.... I hope Mayor stays too.

 

[briangreen]

If you throw in Law and Aimson we still need at least 2 others in the starting line up alone. We definitely need a beast of a C.H. like Purse or Coughlan who isn't afraid to shout and organise.
Midfield wise I have to admit I don't really understand the Camara excitement, he seems very part time to me, but on his day he does a job. I'd like to see Edwards at defensive midfield (Randell bench back up).
I think Michael Cooper has done well considering a very fragile defence in front of him and a midfield that kept giving the ball away and standing beside him in the 18 yard box for 2/3s of the game.
Major rehaul in the summer....

 

[JannerinCardiff]

Of the defenders we need I think for me the middle CB of a back 3 is our top priority. I’d like to see a proper no nonsense footballer who is dominant in the air in box boxes (we let in too many goals from set pieces and also score very few of our own set piece routines), age not bothered but must be experienced and is a good marker.

I still think Will Aimson will get a new deal personally.