Orient v Argyle match thread

[davie nine]

We do look a bit exposed defensively and I think we would be improved if Bakinson came back or someone of his physique and ability. Perhaps Lowe is still in the market for such a player as he was interested in getting Backinsom back but all went quiet. We’re still work in progress with quite a few changes to lineups and new personnel slotting in so not overly concerned apart from goals shipped.

Bit early to be deciding ... but it feels a weaker squad than last year without Bakinson Sarce McFadzean and Palmer. Feels a bit more lightweight to me. Time will tell.

We definitely need more cover at the back, Bakinson would be a great addition.

I don't think Cooper is the answer, he doesn't look anywhere near good enough and he has no presence whatsoever. The fact we've let Palmer slip through our fingers thinking we had sufficient keepers already is a mistake I think Lowe is going to rue all season.

I actually think Lincoln are going to be there or there abouts this season, they've made some quality signings and smashed Bradford 5-0 last night. Two clean sheets out of two so far for Palmer :sigh:

That is very unfair criticism of Mike Cooper. He has been excellent in every game to date.He made several good saves in the first half when, overall, we dominated.
Many goalkeepers opt to punch the ball in a crowded penalty area and there was still opportunity to clear the ball before it came back in.
For their second goal, he came out to help his defence but McAnuff took advantage of a good bounce to lob him.
For the third, he was unable to block the advancing player after Wootton’s disastrous mis-control.
I suggest that you watch Cooper’s performances for a few more games before coming to such a ‘knee jerk’ conclusion.

You haven't really told me anything that wasn't painfully obvious during the game there davie. For the first, I agree that many keepers would punch the ball, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Whether it was down to a lack of confidence in his position, his frame being a bit slight still, or whether he just doesn't assert himself fully enough with crosses - my view is that it's a combination of all three. For that goal, there was simply no need to punch it, there was no pressure on him so catching it would have been pretty straightforward. He then just floundered on his line like an outfield player who'd been put in goal after the keeper had been red carded!

For the second goal, I think Mike was far too keen to advance off his line and give Jobi the opportunity to lob him. His positioning was awful - he was in no man's land. I would've preferred to have seen Cooper stay further back, give the defence a chance to recover or put pressure on McAnuff. McAnuff is a good player with bags of experience, and I think Cooper showed naivety in charging at him like that especially given his hesitation at the crucial moment - if you're going to go then go all the way - my view is that Cooper was caught in two minds, he didn't have the speed to close Jobi quickly enough so he should have stayed where he was - in my view McAnuff would have still had plenty to do if Cooper hadn't charged off his line. Would Wootton have closed him down? I'm not sure, but the fact that yet another ball made it over the top suggests that we've got a real frailty there, and I don't know whether Cooper has the ability yet to win these big one-on-ones.

The third, I also think he could have done better, he just doesn't seem to make himself big enough for me - like I said, I think he lacks presence and doesn't impose himself enough. Again, he showed a clear route to goal for the ball and was beaten at his near post after attempting some kind of weird sideways foot lunge at the feet of Johnson. I don't know whether it was his positioning this time, or his stature maybe, it just seemed too easy.

I'm not trying to slate the guy for the sake of it, nor do I want to discourage us investing in youth - perosnally, I just don't think now is the right time to throw him in. I'm also well aware that it's very easy to criticise a keeper when any slight mistake equals a goal. I just haven't seen enough from Cooper to warrant the hype right now, and I would have much rather we'd gone with a more seasoned option like Palmer for our first season in League One - especially when our defence is, as a unit, still very weak.

These are my views, and of course I'd be as delighted as every other Argyle fan to see him progress through the season, I just hope it doesn't cost us too many points in the meantime.

It hasn’t cost us any points yet. In fact, based on his performance in the first league game, he has actually saved us points.
With regard to the catch/punch, I have watched the extended highlights again, and it was not as easy as you suggest for him to catch, as there was an Orient player jumping in front of him who could have deflected the ball slightly.
With the second goal, I thought that he was left in ‘no man’s land’ by poor covering of a cross field run by McAnuff.
He was blameless for the third goal. His record of blocking in one on one situations in the previous two games has been excellent; even world class keepers will need an element of luck when he is let down by his own defender.
As Oldage has just said “give the young lad a chance”.

 

[vibratingspider]

A more seasoned pro?
Please tell me that when Palmer arrived you greeted him as a seasoned pro?
Or as is factually correct he was a young lad given his chance to impress?

I'm talking about now, not when Palmer first arrived. We're a level higher now, and in my view, it's not the time to bring in a (with respect to Cooper) rookie goalkeeper. I would now regard Palmer as a seasoned keeper, and a very good one. And that's what I think we need. I remember watching Alan Nicholls in his younger days, and certainly McCormick, and I remember thinking that they looked the real deal (to be fair, I also felt that way with James Dungey! :wtf. But with Cooper, I don't feel secure with him between the sticks. It's just a gut feel - his positioning, his decision making, they just don't give me that confidence that I've had with recent keepers. As I said, I'm happy for him to get his chance and, as long as it doesn't cost us our place in League One, then good luck to the guy - if he's wearing the Mayflower on his shirt then he'll get my support regardless.

 

[vibratingspider]

It hasn’t cost us any points yet. In fact, based on his performance in the first league game, he has actually saved us points.
With regard to the catch/punch, I have watched the extended highlights again, and it was not as easy as you suggest for him to catch, as there was an Orient player jumping in front of him who could have deflected the ball slightly.
With the second goal, I thought that he was left in ‘no man’s land’ by poor covering of a cross field run by McAnuff.
He was blameless for the third goal. His record of blocking in one on one situations in the previous two games has been excellent; even world class keepers will need an element of luck when he is let down by his own defender.
As Oldage has just said “give the young lad a chance”.

Of course. At no point have I said I don't think he has the potential to be a good keeper and I'll happily "give the young lad a chance". Like I say, hopefully he'll come good before we ship too many goals and I do agree with the points made about our defence being very shaky which frequently leaves him exposed - second goal on Tuesday is a fair case of that. We do seem to be getting caught with long balls over the top. That's just my view though, it's going to be interesting to see how it all pans out. :scarf:

 

[Quintrell Green]

I am reluctant to hoist defeat responsibility on to the shoulders of keeper Cooper, when Wotton failed to put a bouncing ball directly into touch in the 93rd minute, in what was the right back position, and as for the first goal Watts allowed himself to be beaten in the left back position, when both his man and the ball we virtually on the touchline in front of the Lyndhurst. A more seasoned pro would have had the attacker in touch even if he could not play the ball. Do not forget in terms of the whole game, the Leyton manage made compliments about young Cooper.

 

[davie nine]

I am very happy to see Mike Cooper prove his worth to Argyle in League 1 and look forward to watching his progress.
In my opinion, the main reason that we lost that game was because their right winger, Ruel Sotiriou, who I had never heard of, gave our defence a run around. We, George Cooper and Kelland Watts, in particular, could not control his skill and speed. Even in the first half, when RL said we should have scored 4 or 5 goals, Mike Cooper made 4 decent saves. Just watch the extended highlights.
Sotiriou was given acres of space on the right side and, on occasion, we made him look like Gareth Bale, particularly in the second half.

 

[Devongreenowl]

To be realistic this season we will do well to maintain our position in league 1. We are far too inconsistent and have been ever since RL took over .

One game in and it’s starting folks. Unbelievable. :facepalm:

 

[RochdaleGreen]

I agree with Vibrating Spider's analysis of all 3 goals, with Mike Cooper partially at fault for all, but to a lesser extent than some of the defenders. I will never forget Mike's brilliant second half performance on his debut at Blackburn. Nevertheless, I don't think he is ready and he needs to bulk out a bit. We made a very big mistake in not signing Alex Palmer for this season, allowing Mike Cooper to gain match experience on loan. Result has greatly reduced my overall optimism.

 

[Lobster]

One potential parallel for me is with David de Gea. He came in to the Man United team at 20 and was clearly a good shot stopper, but had a difficult first season with criticism of his ability to handle crosses and the physicality of English football. Man United stuck with him, in a much more high pressure environment than we have this season. He went on to be in the PFA team of the year five times and the Man United player of the year four times.

I'm not saying that this is definitely going to be the case with Cooper, but I think he's worth backing. As many have said, he won't improve without playing. And anyway, Lowe has made up his mind - Coops is our number 1 this season so let's get behind him.

 

[Steve Evans]

wombles 1 argyle 2

 

[davie nine]

I respect the opinions of ‘arrythewurzel’, ‘vibratingspider’ and ‘rochdalegreen’ because there will always be differences of opinion.

What I find most disappointing is that there seem to be few who are prepared to come on here and show support for a young goalkeeper who seems to have impressed opposition managers more than his own club’s supporters.

At least, the above doubters aren’t sitting on the fence.

 

[Steve Evans]

mike cooper will play in the prem.mark my words.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

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mike cooper will play in the prem.mark my words.

That's a ridiculous comment to make so early in his career. His performances so far suggest a decent future in League football but Premier League? Come on.

If his potential was that obvious a bigger club would have come in for him by now.

 

[demportdave]

I respect the opinions of ‘arrythewurzel’, ‘vibratingspider’ and ‘rochdalegreen’ because there will always be differences of opinion.

What I find most disappointing is that there seem to be few who are prepared to come on here and show support for a young goalkeeper who seems to have impressed opposition managers more than his own club’s supporters.

At least, the above doubters aren’t sitting on the fence.

At worse, Cooper will be a good League 1 Keeper but I think he will do far better; time will tell.

We didn't lose at Orient because of Cooper, it was a mixture of poor defending and gung-ho tactics but in fairness to Lowe, Telford should have killed the game off.

We have probably missed out on a lot of TV revenue from Tuesday which will instead go to Orient.

Playing Spurs would have had shades of 1961 when Jimmy Greaves returned to England from Milan and played his first game at HP in a Football Combination fixture where he was publicly welcomed home by Ron Blindell.

 

[Old Gunner]

Cooper is a very useful keeper, very impressed with him so far. He has got us out of trouble when our defence has gone missing in action.
The Orient game was odd...some of the best possession football I have seen from an Argyle team combined with horrendous slow motion defending. I think the team took victory for granted from minute 1 and paid the price. Who knows today...tighten that defence and we will win. Camara looks good by the way.

 

[Devongreenowl]

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mike cooper will play in the prem.mark my words.

That's a ridiculous comment to make so early in his career. His performances so far suggest a decent future in League football but Premier League? Come on.

If his potential was that obvious a bigger club would have come in for him by now.

:funny: Steve was predicting Champions league for Argyle not long ago. I’m assuming he keeps his tongue firmly in his cheek!