Orient v Argyle match thread | Page 15 | PASOTI
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Orient v Argyle match thread

Sep 6, 2006
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HC Green":24lk3222 said:
Argylegames":24lk3222 said:
Balham_Green":24lk3222 said:
At fault for first goal when he punched.

He has to have that coached out of him very very quickly.

Cooper has been at Argyle since the age of nine, training with the same coach for almost all that time.
Perhaps he has been coached to punch to compensate for his height?

If he has we have a problem. The corner leading to their first goal was right down his throat.
Listening to the Orient manager it gets worse from our point of view. Some of their players were recovering from illness :facepalm:
 

vibratingspider

Joined 1996
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Oct 1, 2006
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arrythewurzel":3ffnvr2m said:
We do look a bit exposed defensively and I think we would be improved if Bakinson came back or someone of his physique and ability. Perhaps Lowe is still in the market for such a player as he was interested in getting Backinsom back but all went quiet. We’re still work in progress with quite a few changes to lineups and new personnel slotting in so not overly concerned apart from goals shipped.

Bit early to be deciding ... but it feels a weaker squad than last year without Bakinson Sarce McFadzean and Palmer. Feels a bit more lightweight to me. Time will tell.

We definitely need more cover at the back, Bakinson would be a great addition.

I don't think Cooper is the answer, he doesn't look anywhere near good enough and he has no presence whatsoever. The fact we've let Palmer slip through our fingers thinking we had sufficient keepers already is a mistake I think Lowe is going to rue all season.

I actually think Lincoln are going to be there or there abouts this season, they've made some quality signings and smashed Bradford 5-0 last night. Two clean sheets out of two so far for Palmer :sigh:
 
Nov 11, 2012
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Keyham
Listen to the Orient manager interview where he says that Cooper was outstanding last night. Both the QPR and Blackpool managers have said the same thing but clearly all three know nothing about football because the experts on here know everything. We have asked for years for a manager to give our youth a chance and when we get one, he gets criticised. If Simon Hallett reads this, then he must wonder why he is bothering.
 

The Doctor

✨Pasoti Donor✨
Sep 15, 2003
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I really don't think it's about individual players (e.g. Bakinson coming in) but more about the system overall. I'm certainly not saying 3-5-2 can't work - it does sometimes and it's fantastic to watch at those times. But if 3 or 4 of the middle 5 are players with a primarily attacking mindset (e.g. Cooper and Moore as wing-backs, Mayor on the left) then the team is ALWAYS going to be struggling to control the midfield if it is not completely occupying the opposition with defensive duties. So when a team starts to get back at us or manages to break quickly we struggle because there is so much space for them in midfield. It was noticeable to me that against QPR we did not play a central midfield 3 of McLeod behind Grant and Mayor but played McLeod and Grant deeper with Mayor further forward and more central than he often is. That made us a bit tougher in the middle.

I think you can have 2 x attacking wingbacks or 2 x attacking midfielders (+ 2 x strikers) but you can't have BOTH. The team becomes unbalanced if one wingback is attacking and the other more defensive so I think the answer is to have 2 central midfielders playing deeper and only Mayor in an attacking role (+ 2 x strikers and 2 x wingbacks of course). Essentially that is more like playing 3-2-3-2 or 3-4-1-2 if the wingbacks are pegged back defensively or 5-2-1-2 if we're really defending. Obviously that set up can become a full on attacking 3-5-2 when we're going well if a central midfield pushes forwards. It's a fairly subtle change but it's an important change of basic in the basic structure of the team.

But I freely admit that I am no analyst or expert on team formations. It's just how I see it.
 
Jun 27, 2019
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Keyham Pilgrim":1pfmj5m6 said:
Listen to the Orient manager interview where he says that Cooper was outstanding last night. Both the QPR and Blackpool managers have said the same thing but clearly all three know nothing about football because the experts on here know everything. We have asked for years for a manager to give our youth a chance and when we get one, he gets criticised. If Simon Hallett reads this, then he must wonder why he is bothering.

He definitely wasn't outstanding. He made some good regulation saves and his strength seems to be saving low shots with a strong hand. The jury is still out on other areas of his game, particularly aerially because we haven't yet played a side who lump crosses into the box.

It's definitely too early to start writing him off, but it's natural to question a young keeper when a team is conceding so many goals - so long as the defence in front of him comes in for the same level of scrutiny.
 

vibratingspider

Joined 1996
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Oct 1, 2006
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Keyham Pilgrim":10duq7sh said:
Listen to the Orient manager interview where he says that Cooper was outstanding last night. Both the QPR and Blackpool managers have said the same thing but clearly all three know nothing about football because the experts on here know everything. We have asked for years for a manager to give our youth a chance and when we get one, he gets criticised. If Simon Hallett reads this, then he must wonder why he is bothering.
Apart from your tone, I don't disagree with a lot you've said but there's a difference between given "homegrown" players a chance, and giving "youth" a chance. I would be more than happy having Cooper in the team once he's earned his stripes, perhaps at a lower level for a while longer. I just don't think he's ready just yet, his positional play isn't there and in a one-on-one like the 2nd goal last night, I don't think he's got the presence to win those battles. He doesn't look commanding enough yet, perhaps it's his stature, I don't know.
 
Aug 28, 2015
86
0
argyle.life
Bit of a look at where Argyle were lacking last night. Do enjoy if you can :doh:

Orient defeat exposes leadership void

Without wanting to be disrespectful to the victors on the night, Plymouth Argyle have better quality players than Leyton Orient. If they kept their heads, they’d have had no problem securing the win even after conceding. It just needed somebody to take control, show some responsibility, and guide the side through the match.

Read more > Argyle.Life

 
Mar 14, 2009
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The Doctor":s4lpht1w said:
I really don't think it's about individual players (e.g. Bakinson coming in) but more about the system overall. I'm certainly not saying 3-5-2 can't work - it does sometimes and it's fantastic to watch at those times. But if 3 or 4 of the middle 5 are players with a primarily attacking mindset (e.g. Cooper and Moore as wing-backs, Mayor on the left) then the team is ALWAYS going to be struggling to control the midfield if it is not completely occupying the opposition with defensive duties. So when a team starts to get back at us or manages to break quickly we struggle because there is so much space for them in midfield. It was noticeable to me that against QPR we did not play a central midfield 3 of McLeod behind Grant and Mayor but played McLeod and Grant deeper with Mayor further forward and more central than he often is. That made us a bit tougher in the middle.

I think you can have 2 x attacking wingbacks or 2 x attacking midfielders (+ 2 x strikers) but you can't have BOTH. The team becomes unbalanced if one wingback is attacking and the other more defensive so I think the answer is to have 2 central midfielders playing deeper and only Mayor in an attacking role (+ 2 x strikers and 2 x wingbacks of course). Essentially that is more like playing 3-2-3-2 or 3-4-1-2 if the wingbacks are pegged back defensively or 5-2-1-2 if we're really defending. Obviously that set up can become a full on attacking 3-5-2 when we're going well if a central midfield pushes forwards. It's a fairly subtle change but it's an important change of basic in the basic structure of the team.

But I freely admit that I am no analyst or expert on team formations. It's just how I see it.

I totally agree with you. It makes so much sense to pull one of the CM’s back in with MacLeod to a CDM postion. Giving you better protection and allowing one player more freedom.

We are asking MacLeod to basically to plug the gaps all the time. Mayor stands out so much on the left touchline l think why are you playing CM when you receiving the ball in the left midfield area.

Wasn’t MacAnuff playing in their midfield yesterday?? We blame Watts for being out of postion but why wasn’t he tracked from midfield after the run from such a straight forward over the top ball.

We had no one controlling the game second half because our passing was woeful. I think of David Fox and think how he would of just kept the ball. A Lillian Nallis type who would sit in front of the defence but just keep possession.

The problem l see with this team is to play a wing back system you need very good energetic players to play the wing back roles.

Why not play your play attacking weapon further forward (eg Mayor) and releave him of defensive duties and put a midfielder in CM to help with keeping the ball.

This is a Bury formation from a few seasons ago and it strikes me teams have worked out what Lowe is doing with Mayor. Why can’t wingers be an option when in him and G Cooper we have two very good ones?
 
Jun 27, 2019
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Forget a change in formation, guys, RL has said several times in the past that he won't deviate from his preferred set-up.
 

RKB

♣️ PASTA Member
Jul 22, 2013
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Graham Clark":31ys471e said:
Whilst it is early days admittedly in the three competitive games we've played (QPR, Blackpool and Orient) the opposition have had a total of 57 shots at goal (24 on target) - that is 19 shots per game. Argyle have managed 42 shots (16 on target). Our average last season was 14 shots on target for and 13 against.

It may be coincidence but the three teams have played 4-3-3 with a high press on our back three and despite having watched all three games through the narrow prism of the single iFollow camera there have been a number of occasions in all three games where the ball has been played behind our wing backs leaving either Aimson or Watts overloaded. Committed defence as against Blackpool , where our shot blocking was superb, will get you results but less resolute defending as was on show time and time again against Orient will not.

Once the opposition get to grips with Mayor as Orient did second half all our creativity and pace in attack seems to dissipate if not disappear. Playing with advanced wing backs is fine but a misplaced pass or a dispossession leaves us extremely vulnerable to a swift counter attack in the wide areas (witness Orient's third goal although assisted by Wooton's wretched mistake).

Ryan Lowe did tinker with a 3-1-4-2 last season as a variant to his favoured option. I wonder if Macleod or Grant could play there to drop into the back line if Aimson or Watts have to push wide to cover a counter attack on the flanks. Something needs to change as the first three games have demonstrated that we are far too open and vulnerable to a counter attack and on the evidence so far we will lose more games than we will win if we allow the number of shots on goal we have already each game. Of course if Telford has not screwed his shot wide at 2-0 it may have been a different result but the essential point remains.

I mentioned on another thread that the formation tinker was to a 3-2-3-2, as I think it is already a 3-1-4-2, with Edwards, Josh Grant and then Bakinson all having spells as the '1' last season. However, when Sarcevic was suspended, Conor Grant played a deeper role alongside Bakinson, and a move to this formation (certainly away from home) early on in the League campaign would perhaps give us a little more protection when losing possession. It would certainly allow Mayor to play as a 10, rather than one of 2 8's, and dictate our attacking play even more than he does currently.
They did a job on McLeod second half last night- he just couldn't get free to receive the ball, so time and again all 3 CB's (but especially Watts) were just blasting aimless long balls up the line. With Grant or Camara or Reeves or Randell (whose range of passing I was very impressed with in the Norwich U21 game) sitting alongside McLeod it gives us more options playing out.
It would also allow Moore and Cooper to push forward even further as Aimson and Watts could effectively sit as auxiliary full-backs, with Wootton or Canavan (jury's out for me) in the centre, with the 2 DM's ahead of him.
We might lose a little bit of attacking threat at times, but after nearly 50 shots between us last night, and bucketloads of chances for QPR, Norwich and Blackpool so far, I would settle for a steadier 90 minutes on Saturday (and so would my blood pressure).
 
Jan 27, 2012
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Basically, the defence looks weak and it has for the past 3 seasons. The fans can see this without being football experts or getting into the technicalities of it all. Its just plain to see when you watch them. Palmer was the saviour last season.

I wonder if Gareth Bale will make his 'debut' against Leyton Orient ?
 
Jul 12, 2016
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gaspargomez":328f9byu said:
Basically, the defence looks weak and it has for the past 3 seasons. The fans can see this without being football experts or getting into the technicalities of it all. Its just plain to see when you watch them. Palmer was the saviour last season.

I wonder if Gareth Bale will make his 'debut' against Leyton Orient ?

If this is so obvious to the fans ,it begs the question why has RL failed to address the problem? Perhaps he doesn't share our concerns.
 
Mar 14, 2009
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24 hours later lm still rather annoyed.

And you know what, it’s not even about the result. I can point to many games last season what we have seen so far is a mirror of last season so we bound to get these type of results until we stop giving away sloppy opportunities.

It’s simply the money we could make. I see a lot of people say it’s only a crap cup competition. Unfortunately, that crap cup competition could of made us a lot of money. Look at the current Covid-19 situation. It’s worrying that the clubs probably won’t get huge volumes of fans back in the ground for some time. Financially that has to be a concern for Argyle.

Last night we could of unburdened a little of that financial worry because of a cup progression against a top team. Now Leyton Orient have that benefit.

For me, that’s why last night frustrates because of the financial implications.

Also who’s to say Lowe might want one or two more loan signings. It’s easier to say yes when you have income you haven’t budgeted for.
 

Forest of Dean Green

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Mar 5, 2009
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Lowe wasn’t quite himself in that post match interview either. He was clearly a mix of perplexed and irate, whatever he says about not getting too down. He will sort it out though. Early doors for hand wringing.
 
Jul 12, 2016
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I suspect he was as surprised as anyone by our second half capitulation. Despite it being very early in the season the ongoing issues with our defence is all too apparent.