Persistent Standing Policy

[David Fisher]

28 pages and still nobody can give a valid reason for people being allowed to stand in block 3 and not block 14?

I tell you why, the word nepotism springs to mind.

Who is favouring their friends/relatives/family by allowing standing in Block 3 (and Block 6 and elsewhere) but not in Block 14?

Unfortunately Argyle have painted themselves into a corner by openly allowing standing in block 3 for however many years it is now.

Perhaps there will be a change in policy when the new seats on the Mayflower side are available.

 

[Kentishgreen]

I don’t think it’s about whether or not standing in the back two rows anywhere results in someone’s view being obstructed. It’s about standing in an all seating area being against the law period. I haven’t seen anybody justify yet why they think they should be allowed to do what they want whenever they want and sod the club and anybody else. I agree it’s not been handled at all well but that’s no justification for carrying on doing it and bleating about it when told to stop.

 

[up the line]

I don’t think it’s about whether or not standing in the back two rows anywhere results in someone’s view being obstructed. It’s about standing in an all seating area being against the law period. I haven’t seen anybody justify yet why they think they should be allowed to do what they want whenever they want and sod the club and anybody else. I agree it’s not been handled at all well but that’s no justification for carrying on doing it and bleating about it when told to stop.

Why do you keep saying its against the law? There is no criminal offence caused by standing in an all seater stadium at all so please don't try to criminalise it, even if you don't like it and it is against PAFC ground regs.

Further reading:

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.
It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.
The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters’ Federation, 2008)
Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.
It is notable that the two rules are contradictory, the first bars all ‘standing’, the second only ‘persistent standing’. In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation.
Dr Steve Frosdick is an independent safety expert who has worked in sports grounds across Europe for more than 20 years. He says that standing at the Cardiff City Stadium is neither illegal, nor inherently unsafe, and can be managed to suit the needs of those who prefer to sit or stand. The club agree and have since formalised this approach

 

[Kentishgreen]

Ok it may not be against the law but it does appear to be against the regulations. However you dress it up some people want to do want they want to do irrespective of law or regulations. People who persistently stand in the back rows don’t affect me so I don’t give a rats’ if they stand or not. However if their standing affects my club then it clearly does concern me. If you’re not allowed to do it, don’t do it. What’s so hard about that?

 

[Lundan Cabbie]

28 pages and still nobody can give a valid reason for people being allowed to stand in block 3 and not block 14?

I tell you why, the word nepotism springs to mind.

Who has said that people are allowed to stand in block three? Argyle issued a statement saying that persistent standing isn’t allowed anywhere.

 

[the corkscrew]

I think the genius reply has already been given. We need a safety certificate for the refurbed grandstand and that is being jeopardised by a few people who want to do what they want to do irrespective of the rules and the impact of their actions on the club. Until we have safe standing areas people shouldn’t persistently stand. It’s very simple.

It is of my opinion that even when safe-standing areas have been introduced there will still be people who will want to stand in areas of grounds that don't have it.

And when safe standing is introduced, there will still be 'fans' complaining that standing is disgraceful and writing snide complaints to clubs.

 

[Blackpool pilgrim]

I know some of the people that sit in that area and they have been standing there for years with no complaints or trouble, the start of last season the club started threatening to ban fans if they kept standing.

Results tailed off and the issue seem to disappear I’m not exactly sure why but then the club wait for everyone of those fans to part with over £400 and 3 games into the season are now suspending tickets without even investigating the issue properly fans who wernt even there or fans who don’t stand but are in that area had their tickets suspended including a newborn baby yeah work that one out. My view is the club wernt even going to let them know they’d been suspended and let them turn up unaware of the issue it was only when someone tried to access their online account to purchase league cup tickets to find their account had been locked that they found out about it

Whatever your view on standing why are the club not investigating things and suspending people that aren’t even culpable of standing and secondly why are the club selling the season tickets to the same people only for 3 games in to be going down this route again. These people in my opinion are being made an example of and discriminating them to make a point there needs to be more consistency.

It’s an absolute PR nightmare

 

[GreenThing]

I don’t think it’s about whether or not standing in the back two rows anywhere results in someone’s view being obstructed. It’s about standing in an all seating area being against the law period. I haven’t seen anybody justify yet why they think they should be allowed to do what they want whenever they want and sod the club and anybody else. I agree it’s not been handled at all well but that’s no justification for carrying on doing it and bleating about it when told to stop.

Why do you keep saying its against the law? There is no criminal offence caused by standing in an all seater stadium at all so please don't try to criminalise it, even if you don't like it and it is against PAFC ground regs.

Further reading:

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.
It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.
The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters’ Federation, 2008)
Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.
It is notable that the two rules are contradictory, the first bars all ‘standing’, the second only ‘persistent standing’. In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation.
Dr Steve Frosdick is an independent safety expert who has worked in sports grounds across Europe for more than 20 years. He says that standing at the Cardiff City Stadium is neither illegal, nor inherently unsafe, and can be managed to suit the needs of those who prefer to sit or stand. The club agree and have since formalised this approach

Persistent standing is not allowed so it makes no difference whether it’s called a law or a regulation. Also, the wor ‘law’ doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a criminal offence. Has anyone ever been arrested for handball, which is an offence in the laws governing football?

 

[Kentishgreen]

Exactly and most regulations are underpinned by some law or other somewhere along the line

 

[up the line]

I don’t think it’s about whether or not standing in the back two rows anywhere results in someone’s view being obstructed. It’s about standing in an all seating area being against the law period. I haven’t seen anybody justify yet why they think they should be allowed to do what they want whenever they want and sod the club and anybody else. I agree it’s not been handled at all well but that’s no justification for carrying on doing it and bleating about it when told to stop.

Why do you keep saying its against the law? There is no criminal offence caused by standing in an all seater stadium at all so please don't try to criminalise it, even if you don't like it and it is against PAFC ground regs.

Further reading:

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.
It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.
The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters’ Federation, 2008)
Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.
It is notable that the two rules are contradictory, the first bars all ‘standing’, the second only ‘persistent standing’. In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation.
Dr Steve Frosdick is an independent safety expert who has worked in sports grounds across Europe for more than 20 years. He says that standing at the Cardiff City Stadium is neither illegal, nor inherently unsafe, and can be managed to suit the needs of those who prefer to sit or stand. The club agree and have since formalised this approach

Persistent standing is not allowed so it makes no difference whether it’s called a law or a regulation. Also, the wor ‘law’ doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a criminal offence. Has anyone ever been arrested for handball, which is an offence in the laws governing football?

Oh come off it. How obtuse/tangential can you get?! When Kentish was saying 'its against the law' the inference anyone would take is that you could face criminal prosecution if you broke that law.

Yes however it is correct to say Argyle can take a stance on standing (pun not intended) and state that their ground regs prohibit standing as they are doing and revoke people's right to enter the stadium. But they won't will they? They won't closr the Devonport End where at least 500 people openly stood for the duration of the Walsall game without any issues. If they were really serious about the safety of standing (as they implied with the misleading statement/statistic about injuries at football) then they'd close that whole stand.

The real pity is that Argyle could turn this into a positive by coming out and saying that they are actively exploring what needs to happen in order for them to install rail seating, a perfectly safe facility used in crowds across Europe far larger than Argyle's that gives the standing spectator an option. But to me they seem overly quiet on this.

 

[GreenThing]

I don’t think it’s about whether or not standing in the back two rows anywhere results in someone’s view being obstructed. It’s about standing in an all seating area being against the law period. I haven’t seen anybody justify yet why they think they should be allowed to do what they want whenever they want and sod the club and anybody else. I agree it’s not been handled at all well but that’s no justification for carrying on doing it and bleating about it when told to stop.

Why do you keep saying its against the law? There is no criminal offence caused by standing in an all seater stadium at all so please don't try to criminalise it, even if you don't like it and it is against PAFC ground regs.

Further reading:

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.
It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.
The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters’ Federation, 2008)
Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.
It is notable that the two rules are contradictory, the first bars all ‘standing’, the second only ‘persistent standing’. In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation.
Dr Steve Frosdick is an independent safety expert who has worked in sports grounds across Europe for more than 20 years. He says that standing at the Cardiff City Stadium is neither illegal, nor inherently unsafe, and can be managed to suit the needs of those who prefer to sit or stand. The club agree and have since formalised this approach

Persistent standing is not allowed so it makes no difference whether it’s called a law or a regulation. Also, the wor ‘law’ doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a criminal offence. Has anyone ever been arrested for handball, which is an offence in the laws governing football?

Oh come off it. How obtuse/tangential can you get?! When Kentish was saying 'its against the law' the inference anyone would take is that you could face criminal prosecution if you broke that law.

Yes however it is correct to say Argyle can take a stance on standing (pun not intended) and state that their ground regs prohibit standing as they are doing and revoke people's right to enter the stadium. But they won't will they? They won't closr the Devonport End where at least 500 people openly stood for the duration of the Walsall game without any issues. If they were really serious about the safety of standing (as they implied with the misleading statement/statistic about injuries at football) then they'd close that whole stand.

The real pity is that Argyle could turn this into a positive by coming out and saying that they are actively exploring what needs to happen in order for them to install rail seating, a perfectly safe facility used in crowds across Europe far larger than Argyle's that gives the standing spectator an option. But to me they seem overly quiet on this.

I’m not the one being obtuse, you’re the one arguing over semantics. Just pointing out that whether it’s a law, rule, bylaw or regulation, it makes no difference - you’re not allowed to stand in the seating areas. Until we are allowed to and PAFC decide to install safe standing areas we have to sit to watch the match.

 

[Kentishgreen]

Football is all about percentages. Maybe it’s the same with crowd regulations and standing. If you can say only 500 out of 11000 were in breach of regulations and the club can show they are addressing the issue, maybe that’s enough. What does seem to be clear though is that persistent standing is not allowed. Why should my club be put in jeopardy because a few hundred people don’t give a toss about anything other than themselves? Safe standing is the answer but that’s not in the club’s gift.

 

[SWTT]

Do you take a smart phone to the football with you, or any kind of camera Kentish?

 

[Kentishgreen]

No. I’ve only just got round to taking my phone with me when I walk the dog due to family pressure. I wouldn’t take a phone or anything else that’s irrelevant to the game to a football match. I can resist the urge to take selfies with the unfolding grandstand development in the background. Plus I already know what a football ground looks like.

 

[KFA]

The real pity is that Argyle could turn this into a positive by coming out and saying that they are actively exploring what needs to happen in order for them to install rail seating, a perfectly safe facility used in crowds across Europe far larger than Argyle's that gives the standing spectator an option. But to me they seem overly quiet on this.

The club have publicly stated on a number of occasions that they fully support having specifically designed standing areas at football grounds generally and that the club would like to implement these at HP once they become permissible to use/ practical to install.