European Super League

[East End Green]

There's been no PR exercise from the representatives of the Big Six (lol), no explaining of what the Super League actually is, no start date, no press conference, no media launch, no fixture list, no information whatsoever apart from football needs saving!

There's been one announcement very late on Sunday night UK time.

It's a shambles even before it starts!

Why do they need a PR exercise? Who do they need to win over?

 

[Biggs]

I've seen so much comment today about how the ESL have "underestimated fans' reaction". This has to be the most shortsighted take since the formation of the League itself. Repeat after me fellas: the ESL *do not care* about legacy fans. They *do not care* if every single fan of the Six never puts another penny into their clubs - because they pay off from the Far East, Indian sub-continent, the Middle East and the US *far* outstrips the revenue they get from this tiny island. So fan reaction as a means of opposition is *pointless*.

True, but this reaction is another level. When you have your own club's fans (even players), all of football, the government and the royal family united in coming out against it... it's significant.

The government has said (and by the way, this is a magnificent opportunity for Boris to prove his man of the people credentials and gain a shedload of votes) they will stop this by any means necessary. That's significant.

These are still British institutions and businesses under British law. And they're not that powerful. The average Premier League club's turnover is similar to a single Tesco Extra store.

They've overplayed their hand and have to be slapped back down.

 

[Frank Butcher]

Basically, my instincts are that this is a bad thing. But I always try to listen to the other side of the debate and therefore listened to Madrid's Perez with interest. I'm not sure 'saving football' is appropriate but I do take his point of younger people having multiple channels of entertainment these days and therefore needing to compete. His idea of competition revolves around quality - the belief that people are bored with low quality product and therefore you need to have a guaranteed spectacle of high quality.

Whatever his motivations (and I'm entirely cynical about that), I do think he has a point. I know many young people 20-25 in my daughter's peergroup who have no interest in football - to me at odds with what would have been the case when I was their age. And I have to admit that the games I tune in to on TV tend to be of higher quality, typically involving the big 6. Do I want to watch Brighton v Southampton or even Wolves v West Ham - almost certainly no these days. Now that may have something to do with the saturation of televised football, though I know one or two people who will religiously watch everything. The same applies in League One - I have to admit I would never watch any game that we weren't involved in, nor have I tuned in to any Championship games.

So while I don't belive this is the genuine rationale, I do see the point. But I don't believe the ESL as proposed is the answer - the over-riding objection being the closed group nature of it. If it were an ESL with no guarantees - relegation as normal at the top of the pyramid, I'm sure there would be much less objection. And let's face it if these 12 clubs are as good as they think they are, they really should have no concerns. Maybe the compromise is that that is where we will end up?

 

[East End Green]

I've seen so much comment today about how the ESL have "underestimated fans' reaction". This has to be the most shortsighted take since the formation of the League itself. Repeat after me fellas: the ESL *do not care* about legacy fans. They *do not care* if every single fan of the Six never puts another penny into their clubs - because they pay off from the Far East, Indian sub-continent, the Middle East and the US *far* outstrips the revenue they get from this tiny island. So fan reaction as a means of opposition is *pointless*.

True, but this reaction is another level. When you have your own club's fans (even players), all of football, the government and the royal family united in coming out against it... it's significant.

The government has said (and by the way, this is a magnificent opportunity for Boris to prove his man of the people credentials and gain a shedload of votes) they will stop this by any means necessary. That's significant.

These are still British institutions and businesses under British law. And they're not that powerful. The average Premier League club's turnover is similar to a single Tesco Extra store.

They've overplayed their hand and have to be slapped back down.

How does the British government stop a European competition? And which laws have they broken by leaving one competition and going to another? I can see, and would totally support, them being prevented form participating in any domestic competition - but I don't think they can be forced to stay in a competition that they didn't want to be a part of.

I say again, the legacy fans are irrelevant to the ESL. It doesn't matter who pipes up, or how much of an 'institution' they used to be. They are commercial entities making primarily video content choosing to exercise their business in a different way. Off you pop then. No you can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[Quinny]

There's been no PR exercise from the representatives of the Big Six (lol), no explaining of what the Super League actually is, no start date, no press conference, no media launch, no fixture list, no information whatsoever apart from football needs saving!

There's been one announcement very late on Sunday night UK time.

It's a shambles even before it starts!

I suppose it doesn't help that the EPL have employed Katie Perrior, who was No 10 Director of Communications under Theresa May, as their PR agent.

 

[mutley marvel]

Faceless cowards - putting their employees in the difficult position of facing the media

Shows how much they care about their so called commodities ---- talk about being hung out to dry


Just shows the total disconnect between the money men & the football men

These managers should be talking about games coming up not what the faceless,conniving, back stabbing owners are trying to do------ disgraceful

 

[PL2 3DQ]

This is good from James Corden, worth a watch although the Americans are probably wondering what on earth is he on about ...
Twitter.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

The Guardian just linked to an old video Argyle have re-published on Twitter.

This is football: https://twitter.com/Only1Argyle/status/ ... 3695704073

 

[greenpilled]

Purely for the sake of balance, and to get an idea of the other side, does anybody actually agree that this is a good idea, and will go for it.

Purely for the sake of discussion. Because of the lack of clarity by the owners of the’big 6’.

Yes, me. It will be the saving of football, IF UEFA stick to their guns and kick them out and the PL/FL undergo rapid structural reorganisation with governmental help to insist on proper fan involvement/ownership.

Businesses should be free to trade with whomsoever they like and to join whatever organisations and structures they like, provided they understand that membership of one organisation may well preclude membership of another. I don't see why this is controversial - nor do I see what role Government has in preserving the income streams of twenty or so first and second tier clubs who have mortgaged everything in pursuit of an impossible dream.

The hypocrisy and myopia of those who cheered from the rafters when the PL was formed, just as ignominiously, who now are crying into their beer would be enraging if it were not so amusing. For Gary Neville and his ilk, who benefitted the most from the PL and who have been taking the Sky shilling since forever, to be making impassioned rants about football losing its soul is nauseating. If the English authorities play this right they will win the PR war (which the ESL have no interest in fighting anyway) and will, after a period of adjustment, be able to safeguard the game structurally and financially for decades to come.

I've seen so much comment today about how the ESL have "underestimated fans' reaction". This has to be the most shortsighted take since the formation of the League itself. Repeat after me fellas: the ESL *do not care* about legacy fans. They *do not care* if every single fan of the Six never puts another penny into their clubs - because they pay off from the Far East, Indian sub-continent, the Middle East and the US *far* outstrips the revenue they get from this tiny island. So fan reaction as a means of opposition is *pointless*. Check the stock prices of the ESL clubs. Check the fact JP Morgan is bankrolling them. The opportunity for the biggest leeches in the game to be gone and for the game to have a chance to reset itself, particularly in the light of Covid, is a *fantastic* one for those of us who truly believe in football as a real community asset, rather than a fake one. Fans should be celebrating and cheering, not protesting. Just please, PLEASE, take the Glasgow Ugly Sisters with them.

I agree with most of this, but I actually think that if the clubs are taking that attitude towards 'legacy fans' they are misguided to do so.

At Arsenal, for example, matchday income (pre pandemic) accounted for roughly a quarter of total revenue - I suspect that a lot of the other three quarters (commercial and broadcast) ultimately derives from domestic fans (they probably call them 'consumers') and will continue to do so for all the clubs in question.

In the future, overseas 'markets' might have more potential for growth. But these games are going to take place in the middle of the night in Asia and the middle of the working day in North America. You can solve that problem by moving the games around the globe, but the financial case for that - whether the fans in Nashville or Nanjing will turn out, whether it will more than offset lost revenue from European TV audiences - seems questionable.

My totally uninformed speculation would be that the Italian and Spanish clubs are keen on this because their domestic leagues are financially much weaker than the Premier League. The English big 6 clubs all have far higher revenues than their Serie A counterparts. Barcelona and Real Madrid are richer, but partly because La Liga revenues are much less evenly distributed, meaning their domestic league is essentially a glitzier version of the Scottish duopoly.

Arsenal and Spurs probably like the idea of permanently establishing themselves amongst an elite that they're not currently part of. But the other English clubs have made a huge strategic error in alienating fans, football administrators and the government to push for a situation that doesn't hugely benefit them compared to the status quo. My guess is that they've gone along with this for fear of it happening without them, and probably anticipating that French, German and possibly clubs from other countries would be involved as well.

Hopefully, your bet (and their's?) on the impotence of these different stakeholders will prove misguided and we will get a re-set in the finance and governance of football that is long overdue.

 

[Gary S]

Basically, my instincts are that this is a bad thing. But I always try to listen to the other side of the debate and therefore listened to Madrid's Perez with interest. I'm not sure 'saving football' is appropriate but I do take his point of younger people having multiple channels of entertainment these days and therefore needing to compete. His idea of competition revolves around quality - the belief that people are bored with low quality product and therefore you need to have a guaranteed spectacle of high quality.

Whatever his motivations (and I'm entirely cynical about that), I do think he has a point. I know many young people 20-25 in my daughter's peergroup who have no interest in football - to me at odds with what would have been the case when I was their age. And I have to admit that the games I tune in to on TV tend to be of higher quality, typically involving the big 6. Do I want to watch Brighton v Southampton or even Wolves v West Ham - almost certainly no these days. Now that may have something to do with the saturation of televised football, though I know one or two people who will religiously watch everything. The same applies in League One - I have to admit I would never watch any game that we weren't involved in, nor have I tuned in to any Championship games.

So while I don't belive this is the genuine rationale, I do see the point. But I don't believe the ESL as proposed is the answer - the over-riding objection being the closed group nature of it. If it were an ESL with no guarantees - relegation as normal at the top of the pyramid, I'm sure there would be much less objection. And let's face it if these 12 clubs are as good as they think they are, they really should have no concerns. Maybe the compromise is that that is where we will end up?

I believe that there is still plenty of interest in football in this country, but I also feel that the focus of interest is showing signs of shifting. I have noticed increased attendances in the lower leagues in recent years, and in particular a surge in interest in non-league football. The football fan in this country wants to feel close to his/her club, to feel involved, and people are realizing that they can get this feeling lower down the pyramid. The tie between the British football fan and the club is something that most if not all foreign owners completely fail to appreciate, though the backlash on this occasion may provide them with an inkling. As many others on here have noted, however, it's quite likely that they couldn't give a monkey's anyway.

 

[greenpilled]

Basically, my instincts are that this is a bad thing. But I always try to listen to the other side of the debate and therefore listened to Madrid's Perez with interest. I'm not sure 'saving football' is appropriate but I do take his point of younger people having multiple channels of entertainment these days and therefore needing to compete. His idea of competition revolves around quality - the belief that people are bored with low quality product and therefore you need to have a guaranteed spectacle of high quality.

Whatever his motivations (and I'm entirely cynical about that), I do think he has a point. I know many young people 20-25 in my daughter's peergroup who have no interest in football - to me at odds with what would have been the case when I was their age. And I have to admit that the games I tune in to on TV tend to be of higher quality, typically involving the big 6. Do I want to watch Brighton v Southampton or even Wolves v West Ham - almost certainly no these days. Now that may have something to do with the saturation of televised football, though I know one or two people who will religiously watch everything. The same applies in League One - I have to admit I would never watch any game that we weren't involved in, nor have I tuned in to any Championship games.

So while I don't belive this is the genuine rationale, I do see the point. But I don't believe the ESL as proposed is the answer - the over-riding objection being the closed group nature of it. If it were an ESL with no guarantees - relegation as normal at the top of the pyramid, I'm sure there would be much less objection. And let's face it if these 12 clubs are as good as they think they are, they really should have no concerns. Maybe the compromise is that that is where we will end up?

The answer to Perez's concerns is not to make football even more predictable by reducing the top level to 12 clubs concentrated in just 7 cities, but to have an independent regulator of football that oversees much more effective controls of players' wages and a far more redistributive game than is currently the case - both within countries, and across Europe.

Even if you're a free market fanatic, there's a strong case for this.

Football clubs are part of the wider football 'ecosystem.' The aura of a club like Liverpool depends on the wider passion for football within the UK, which is supported by lower league and grassroots clubs up and down the land.

Without strong footballing infrastructure - including professional clubs in cities and large towns - the popularity of football from which Liverpool benefit would be greatly diminished. There would be a much smaller pool from which to draw their players and fans.

Similarly, the mythology that's built up around their European exploits requires worthy opponents across the continent, including in smaller or poorer countries.

So their TV money, merchandise sales and 'sponsored content' rolls in on the back of other clubs' labours. What's needed is the complete opposite of the Super League proposals - measures to address this market failure and bring the top 12 back into the financial orbit of the rest of European football, not separate them even further.

 

[Andy Tall]

It is pure greed. But I don't get all the hand-wringing around fans of these clubs feeling betrayed - couldn't they see this coming? Many of these clubs sold their souls a while ago and fans have fed the beast with their Sky packages and the insatiable demand for the "product".

The super league will become a franchise system and in 10 years time they'll have the derby game between Guangzhou Hotspurs and Kuala Lumpur Gunners to look forward to.

 

[Herts Green]

It is pure greed. But I don't get all the hand-wringing around fans of these clubs feeling betrayed - couldn't they see this coming? Many of these clubs sold their souls a while ago and fans have fed the beast with their Sky packages and the insatiable demand for the "product".

The super league will become a franchise system and in 10 years time they'll have the derby game between Guangzhou Hotspurs and Kuala Lumpur Gunners to look forward to.

Of course the fans of the 6 clubs have been betrayed. I have a friend who is an Arsenal season ticket holder of many years, who loves the club just as much as you or I love Argyle. He is now facing the real possibility of having to rip up his season ticket and turn his back on the club all because of the actions of a small number of disgraceful, selfish owners who only care about their own profit margins. It’s not his fault that Stan Kroneke owns the club any more than it was your fault that Keith Todd and his poisonous friends owned ours.
Him and many thousands of others who are season ticket holders at those clubs are not ‘plastics’ to be looked down upon, they are people who care desperately for their teams. And it’s being stolen from them.

 

[Metal Green Mickey]

UEFA, FIFA and the Premier League are making themselves look like the good guys.

Remember the premier league recently talked about introducing the 39th game. Remember this is an organisation that asks fans to pay top money for their match tickets. This is the organisation that make fans from Newcastle travel down to London (and vice versa for the London Supporting teams) for 12.30 pm / 17.30pm kick offs on a Saturday or Sunday when we don’t have the transport infrastructure in place to deal with it.

Then you have UEFA and FIFA. They aren’t worried about the good of the game. They worried about losing power and their money. Remember this organisations have done nothing about the racism in football. Remember when it comes to a champions league final this is an organisation that gives just 15% to each set of fans to watch their club at the pinnacle of European football.

It’s no good just stoping the European Super League. Football needs a hard reset.

 

[Quinny]

TBH it would be bl**dy hilarious if Chelski were kicked out of Stamford Bridge.

https://twitter.com/ben_rumsby/status/1384508716196585474