Ben Reeves

[EyeOpener]

It's surprising how some are so reluctant to embrace change, new innovatives and progress in the game and like to hark back to the distant past when in their minds things were so much better.
Footballers these days are born with no more talent than they were in the 1960s but playing standards have improved noticeably. Of course they benefit from vastly superior pitches to play on, lighter balls, boots etc but also from great strides that have been made in diet, sports science and training regimes amongst other things that have made them generally bigger, stronger and faster athletes just as in any sport in the past 60 years. Skilful players also get much more protection from referees now and more opportunity to express their talent.Also in recent years since the Bosman ruling players have so much more power. No manager would get away with some of the verbal abuse, throwing of tea cups in the dressing room and strict discipline that the old school managers like Cullis, Nicholson, Clough and Saunders used to name just a few. They have to manage very differently in this day and age whether you feel that is a good or a bad thing.
Likewise in very recent years data analysis is another tool that clubs are using to gain a slight edge. It isn't fool proof of course but it is something else to help try and gain a small advantage. It surprises me to hear people dismissing it out of hand when it is relatively new and when in all honesty they know very little about it.
I had a chat one day with Newcastle's 1st team data man Billy Coulston, a Tavistock lad who played in the youth ranks at Argyle. It was extremely interesting and enlightning and helped me as someone with a bit of a dinosaur outlook see things differently and with a much more open mind.

The significant difference for Argyle is our location. Data analytics may well be helpful for clubs less remote but I don't believe it works for us.

Say Ryan Lowe consults a computer and it gives him a list of candidates that meet his parameters for a certain position. He obviously wants the one at the top of the list but unfortunately the guy doesnt want to move down here so Lowe looks at the next one. The thing is, he finds he gets the same response from everyone else so we end up with someone toward the bottom of the list unless of course we get the very big cheque book out. Or we get someone with a history of injuries, or an untried youngster, or a veteran looking for a final pay check.

As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing to do with not embracing change. I would much rather we used the time and money in a much better way and accept it doesn't work for us. Lowe himself has said that they got the recruitment badly wrong. I suggest that is because they place too much reliance on a useless tool. Not all change is good and/or necessary. The chairman has said he is happy with people when they are underperforming as long as they can show that they're learning. Hopefully Lowe will ditch data analytics as that would go a long way to showing me that he's learning.

You seem to be suggesting that we accept our position as a League 1/2 ‘yoyo’ club because, due to our location, we will always end up with ‘someone with a history of injuries, untried youngsters or veterans looking for a final pay check’.
What is your system for recruiting a team that is capable of challenging for promotion to the Championship and avoiding recruiting the 3 categories that you describe?

I tend to look at history as history always has a way of repeating itself in one way or another. What history tells me as far as success is concerned for Argyle, is that we achieve more when we look further afield for our players. When we were knocking on the door of the Premiership we had a team made up mainly of players that originated from outside of our shores; Halmosi, Buzaky, Friio, Nalis, Bolasie, Arnason, Abdou etc

Imo, we should be looking at players abroad that want to come to the UK to play and showcase their abilities with the hope of establishing themselves over here. The thing is, I'm not sure if Argyle have access to data analytics that covers players outside of the UK so once again, no point in having it if thats the case. Its a 'nice to have' kinda thing that doesn't really benefit us considering our location as far as I'm concerned. A 'nice to have' thing that probably costs a pretty penny.

 

[EyeOpener]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Leicester also used analysts / analytics heavily the year they won the title.

Can I just re-iterate as well to all the doubters - analytics is everywhere in the professional game now. This idea that almost every other club has some bloke as a chief scout and nothing else couldn't be further from the truth.

Combining the two facts of "Argyle use analytics" and "Argyle have done badly this season" is a huge case of putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Maybe we have capacity to improve the analytics side of things, either by process or personnel, I don't know. But this idea that we should scrap the scheme all together and go back to the old method because we've had one bad season is nonsense. If it isn't worth doing, why is almost every professional club doing it?

From a football perspective, almost smack bang in the middle of the Country and accessible to the majority of decent players. My issue with data analytics for Argyle is that we are not geographically smack bang in the middle of the footballing world and so are far, far less an attractive proposition for the best footballers, unless, like I say, we offer stupid wages.

Like you say, almost every other professional club is using the tool so the same players we want will probably be on their lists as well so where do you think the player is going to opt for? Its a waste of money for our club because of where we are. I'm not saying data analytics is a rubbish tool, I'm saying it does not work for us so bin it, save a shedload of money and adopt a different recruitment strategy.

 

[davie nine]

It's surprising how some are so reluctant to embrace change, new innovatives and progress in the game and like to hark back to the distant past when in their minds things were so much better.
Footballers these days are born with no more talent than they were in the 1960s but playing standards have improved noticeably. Of course they benefit from vastly superior pitches to play on, lighter balls, boots etc but also from great strides that have been made in diet, sports science and training regimes amongst other things that have made them generally bigger, stronger and faster athletes just as in any sport in the past 60 years. Skilful players also get much more protection from referees now and more opportunity to express their talent.Also in recent years since the Bosman ruling players have so much more power. No manager would get away with some of the verbal abuse, throwing of tea cups in the dressing room and strict discipline that the old school managers like Cullis, Nicholson, Clough and Saunders used to name just a few. They have to manage very differently in this day and age whether you feel that is a good or a bad thing.
Likewise in very recent years data analysis is another tool that clubs are using to gain a slight edge. It isn't fool proof of course but it is something else to help try and gain a small advantage. It surprises me to hear people dismissing it out of hand when it is relatively new and when in all honesty they know very little about it.
I had a chat one day with Newcastle's 1st team data man Billy Coulston, a Tavistock lad who played in the youth ranks at Argyle. It was extremely interesting and enlightning and helped me as someone with a bit of a dinosaur outlook see things differently and with a much more open mind.

The significant difference for Argyle is our location. Data analytics may well be helpful for clubs less remote but I don't believe it works for us.

Say Ryan Lowe consults a computer and it gives him a list of candidates that meet his parameters for a certain position. He obviously wants the one at the top of the list but unfortunately the guy doesnt want to move down here so Lowe looks at the next one. The thing is, he finds he gets the same response from everyone else so we end up with someone toward the bottom of the list unless of course we get the very big cheque book out. Or we get someone with a history of injuries, or an untried youngster, or a veteran looking for a final pay check.

As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing to do with not embracing change. I would much rather we used the time and money in a much better way and accept it doesn't work for us. Lowe himself has said that they got the recruitment badly wrong. I suggest that is because they place too much reliance on a useless tool. Not all change is good and/or necessary. The chairman has said he is happy with people when they are underperforming as long as they can show that they're learning. Hopefully Lowe will ditch data analytics as that would go a long way to showing me that he's learning.

You seem to be suggesting that we accept our position as a League 1/2 ‘yoyo’ club because, due to our location, we will always end up with ‘someone with a history of injuries, untried youngsters or veterans looking for a final pay check’.
What is your system for recruiting a team that is capable of challenging for promotion to the Championship and avoiding recruiting the 3 categories that you describe?

I tend to look at history as history always has a way of repeating itself in one way or another. What history tells me as far as success is concerned for Argyle, is that we achieve more when we look further afield for our players. When we were knocking on the door of the Premiership we had a team made up mainly of players that originated from outside of our shores; Halmosi, Buzaky, Friio, Nalis, Bolasie, Arnason, Abdou etc

Imo, we should be looking at players abroad that want to come to the UK to play and showcase their abilities with the hope of establishing themselves over here. The thing is, I'm not sure if Argyle have access to data analytics that covers players outside of the UK so once again, no point in having it if thats the case. Its a 'nice to have' kinda thing that doesn't really benefit us considering our location as far as I'm concerned. A 'nice to have' thing that probably costs a pretty penny.

History!!
As you mention history, I have cut and pasted a thread that I started on 23rd September 2019 under the heading 'Proof for the need of a dominant center half/back'

"In the last 70 years, most of our successful teams have had dominant centre halves whose aerial ability was crucial.
Starting with Jack Chisholm (1950's), we had Gordon Fincham (1960's), Mike Green (1970's), Gerry McElhinney (1980's), Mick Heathcote (1990's), Graham Coughlan and Krisztian Timar (2000's) and Sonny Bradley (2010's).
Argyle achieved a level of success with all of these centre halves/backs in our teams.
I believe that this provides sufficient evidence that this type of defender is what we, currently, need more than any other position in Ryan Lowe's team.
Hopefully, one of the players who have been contacting RL has these attributes and he can sign them at the earliest opportunity.
Obviously, a 20 goals a season striker would also be very useful."

It didn't happen then but, hopefully, it will happen before the 21/22 season starts

 

[jimsing]

Potty,

Hallett has insisted that data analytics is used, and Lowe has agreed to use it, otherwise he would not have become manager, so it is here to stay, I'm afraid.

 

[Emu]

There appears to be a thought process that we are ahead of the game on other teams with our use of player data, but don't the majority of professional clubs use this process nowadays?

 

[Argylegames]

Potty,

Hallett has insisted that data analytics is used, and Lowe has agreed to use it, otherwise he would not have become manager, so it is here to stay, I'm afraid.

That confuses me as Lowe brought his data analyst with him from Bury. I think the Chairman said he wanted a manager who used analysis and found one.

It is big in the USA of course since it was 'invented' in Baseball.

 

[Drake]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Leicester also used analysts / analytics heavily the year they won the title.

Can I just re-iterate as well to all the doubters - analytics is everywhere in the professional game now. This idea that almost every other club has some bloke as a chief scout and nothing else couldn't be further from the truth.

Combining the two facts of "Argyle use analytics" and "Argyle have done badly this season" is a huge case of putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Maybe we have capacity to improve the analytics side of things, either by process or personnel, I don't know. But this idea that we should scrap the scheme all together and go back to the old method because we've had one bad season is nonsense. If it isn't worth doing, why is almost every professional club doing it?

From a football perspective, almost smack bang in the middle of the Country and accessible to the majority of decent players. My issue with data analytics for Argyle is that we are not geographically smack bang in the middle of the footballing world and so are far, far less an attractive proposition for the best footballers, unless, like I say, we offer stupid wages.

Like you say, almost every other professional club is using the tool so the same players we want will probably be on their lists as well so where do you think the player is going to opt for? Its a waste of money for our club because of where we are. I'm not saying data analytics is a rubbish tool, I'm saying it does not work for us so bin it, save a shedload of money and adopt a different recruitment strategy.

You really are coming out with some almighty twaddle here.

The fact that location can be an issue for us in recruitment is the same whether a data analysis is utilised (alongside traditional methods I might add) or not. Plymouth will always remain where it is. The analysis is there to help filter through the hundreds of names that will be available to Argyle as potential signatures.

Yes you are correct in thinking that the players with the ‘best’ stats will be high on all clubs target lists, but it’s not always about the so-called ‘best’ players. It’s about identifying what the specific needs of the team are. What does Lowe et al need a player to do in a defined position for example? These things will vary from team to team, manager to manager. Then once a number of players have been identified the next step of due diligence will be enacted - scouting, speaking to associates etc, and only then will a shortlist of lads to actually approach be ready.

 

[DartPilgrim]

Potty,

Hallett has insisted that data analytics is used, and Lowe has agreed to use it, otherwise he would not have become manager, so it is here to stay, I'm afraid.

That confuses me as Lowe brought his data analyst with him from Bury. I think the Chairman said he wanted a manager who used analysis and found one.

It is big in the USA of course since it was 'invented' in Baseball.

I think data analysis has many aspects ,Jimmy Dickinson will likely analyse club and opponent data , whereas the data analysis companies Argyle are in partnership with collect player specific data that they can match to the specifics that we are looking for when recruiting new players, effectively providing a thinner down list of players for us to look at , players who should suit RL's requirements.

 

[jerryatricjanner]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Leicester also used analysts / analytics heavily the year they won the title.

Can I just re-iterate as well to all the doubters - analytics is everywhere in the professional game now. This idea that almost every other club has some bloke as a chief scout and nothing else couldn't be further from the truth.

Combining the two facts of "Argyle use analytics" and "Argyle have done badly this season" is a huge case of putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Maybe we have capacity to improve the analytics side of things, either by process or personnel, I don't know. But this idea that we should scrap the scheme all together and go back to the old method because we've had one bad season is nonsense. If it isn't worth doing, why is almost every professional club doing it?

From a football perspective, almost smack bang in the middle of the Country and accessible to the majority of decent players. My issue with data analytics for Argyle is that we are not geographically smack bang in the middle of the footballing world and so are far, far less an attractive proposition for the best footballers, unless, like I say, we offer stupid wages.

Like you say, almost every other professional club is using the tool so the same players we want will probably be on their lists as well so where do you think the player is going to opt for? Its a waste of money for our club because of where we are. I'm not saying data analytics is a rubbish tool, I'm saying it does not work for us so bin it, save a shedload of money and adopt a different recruitment strategy.

I have been watching Argyle for 56 years Potty and I don't recall the time "we were knocking on the door of the Premier League."
I may be wrong but I would be surprised if in this day and age data analysts didn't have access to data on players outside of England and Wales.
I do agree that attracting players from abroad has it's merits but now we are out of the EU that will become harder numbers wise and for the criteria required.
I fail to see how it is a waste of money. Surely a lot of the ground work done by an analyst can save several members of a scouting team attending games all over the country and targets can be narrowed down before watching in person?
I'm not sure how you can say with such certainty it is a waste of money for us, doesn't work and we should bin it when it is in it's infancy for us as a club and is only a part of the recruitment process anyway.

 

[oldage]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Not a closed mind I can assure you .However I am not going to support new initiatives like some other fans for the sake of it. You mention Leicester and others have mentioned Brentford and Peterborough having success so 3 out of 92 clubs which does not prove a lot. SH's job is driven by data and analysis but football is totally different. You are dealing with players with different personalities who happen to make mistakes .

 

[oldage]

Potty,

Hallett has insisted that data analytics is used, and Lowe has agreed to use it, otherwise he would not have become manager, so it is here to stay, I'm afraid.

That confuses me as Lowe brought his data analyst with him from Bury. I think the Chairman said he wanted a manager who used analysis and found one.

It is big in the USA of course since it was 'invented' in Baseball.

I think data analysis has many aspects ,Jimmy Dickinson will likely analyse club and opponent data , whereas the data analysis companies Argyle are in partnership with collect player specific data that they can match to the specifics that we are looking for when recruiting new players, effectively providing a thinner down list of players for us to look at , players who should suit RL's requirements.

Hasn't done much for us so far. Our goals against column tells us all we need to know.

 

[GreatYarmouthGreen]

Data Analysis can only do so much. It can show what player would suit us. How many of those can we get on our budget? Not as many as some other clubs in this league.

So It comes down to who the manager can get in and that again is personal choice.

I don't buy the location angle anymore. Look at Tenerife in the Spanish league, look at all teams in the MLS. We aren't 1000s of miles away from other teams and if we were such an unattractive proposition then we would never get players to come. But we do, we've stayed up in league 1 this year so obviously at a basic level we can compete for signings with others in this league.

Use it for a while longer, let it bed in and see how it goes with recruitment this season.

 

[Drake]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Not a closed mind I can assure you .However I am not going to support new initiatives like some other fans for the sake of it. You mention Leicester and others have mentioned Brentford and Peterborough having success so 3 out of 92 clubs which does not prove a lot. SH's job is driven by data and analysis but football is totally different. You are dealing with players with different personalities who happen to make mistakes .

No, you do have a closed mind. You simply will not acknowledge that data is JUST PART OF A RECRUITMENT PROCESS it is not the be all and end all. Players aren’t simply picked from a spreadsheet and then turn up at Home Park :doh: It opens up Argyle to more players than can ever realistically be scouted in person, but players who are identified will be scouted, will be assessed with regards their personalities etc how naive can you be to think otherwise?

 

[oldage]

Whether you prove to be right or wrong in the fullness of time Oldage you seem to have a very closed mind on so many issues. I have just read another interesting article about Leicester City's Scottish first team analyst. Brendan Rodgers read some blogs the then 19 year old had posted on a German football website whilst manager at Celtic. He invited him to Celtic Park and recruited him and then when taking over at Leicester brought him down from Scotland where the now 24 year old is apparently just one of the cogs that help make up a successful backroom team at the club. Without wishing to sound patronising sometimes we need to open our minds just a little before dismissing things out of hand.

Not a closed mind I can assure you .However I am not going to support new initiatives like some other fans for the sake of it. You mention Leicester and others have mentioned Brentford and Peterborough having success so 3 out of 92 clubs which does not prove a lot. SH's job is driven by data and analysis but football is totally different. You are dealing with players with different personalities who happen to make mistakes .

No, you do have a closed mind. You simply will not acknowledge that data is JUST PART OF A RECRUITMENT PROCESS it is not the be all and end all. Players aren’t simply picked from a spreadsheet and then turn up at Home Park :doh: It opens up Argyle to more players than can ever realistically be scouted in person, but players who are identified will be scouted, will be assessed with regards their personalities etc how naive can you be to think otherwise?

I know more about recruitment than you will ever know having spent a career in HR. I KNOW it is part of the recruitment process having used it extensively but Lowe seems to use it as the most important tool.Trying to teach grandmother to suck eggs? :wave:

 

[IJN]

I'd still love to know what data drove us to sign Nouble. :wtf: