Kevin Hodges Leaves Argyle Academy

[Quintrell Green]

Living over 50 miles from Plymouth, I am not privvy to rumours, whispers or what have you, but I ask this question. Is the disappointment of rejection as a possible future apprentice professional footballer any harsher in 2019 than in 1989 or even earlier. I know of someone who was at Argyle as a youth, who was told by Malcolm Allison, in his HP days, 'you ain't got it son, I should push off home'. He accepted it and was happy enough to play in local senior football for years.

We have had in the last 2/3 years national publicity regarding the rejection of young female cyclists for membership of the GB Olympic Cycling squad. Accusations were made of bullying against the Head Coach despite him producing numerous gold medal winning members. We have had similar lines of publicity against the GB National Swimming Coach and his coaching of squad members in order to produce medal winning results.
It strikes me that 30 years ago we never seemed to have this sort of problem. It begs the question as to whether expectations in 2019 by those involved or their parents, are too high in the first place, or are young people being brought up in a softer society, where negativity is not accepted

 

[The Doctor]

Living over 50 miles from Plymouth, I am not privvy to rumours, whispers or what have you, but I ask this question. Is the disappointment of rejection as a possible future apprentice professional footballer any harsher in 2019 than in 1989 or even earlier. I know of someone who was at Argyle as a youth, who was told by Malcolm Allison, in his HP days, 'you ain't got it son, I should push off home'. He accepted it and was happy enough to play in local senior football for years.

We have had in the last 2/3 years national publicity regarding the rejection of young female cyclists for membership of the GB Olympic Cycling squad. Accusations were made of bullying against the Head Coach despite him producing numerous gold medal winning members. We have had similar lines of publicity against the GB National Swimming Coach and his coaching of squad members in order to produce medal winning results.
It strikes me that 30 years ago we never seemed to have this sort of problem. It begs the question as to whether expectations in 2019 by those involved or their parents, are too high in the first place, or are young people being brought up in a softer society, where negativity is not accepted

Just a comment on the wording of this, not a comment on what you believe to be the case since that is open to different interpretations. it is just interesting to see how the way you have expressed this seems to come at things from a particular vantage point.

You could flip quite a lot of this around... That coaches delivered gold medal winning athletes is not a justification for, or a reason to allow, bullying etc. (if such happened), Perhaps the medal return might have been even higher with a more empathetic approach to handling individuals. And perhaps it is better to think of society 30 years ago as having been unnecessarily and inappropriately harsh rather than to think of modern society as having become soft(er).

I happen to believe that it IS important for people to develop resilience and be able to take negative feedback, suffer disappointments etc. without being hugely derailed. And so people should not be molly-coddled and shielded from criticism. But obviously it IS important that feedback (of all kinds) is delivered with some sensitivity and awareness of the impact it might have on people, especially (but not only) young people who may well not yet have developed high levels of resilience.

Perhaps we didn't have this kind of problem 30 years ago. But perhaps, as a result of what things were like (e.g.) 30 years ago, we have a different set of problems now...

 

[nick623]

I keep hearing on this message board that times have moved on and things need to be done differently these days. KH is accused of being 'old fashioned' in his methods and it is that which has brought about his demise. It was not long ago he was in charge of an Argyle academy team which beat if not the best, then one of the best academy sides in this world, namely Manchester City in the FA Youth Cup. Followed by going away to Burnley, winning and missing out on penalties to another top academy team Fulham. I could list all the players he has developed over the years in his role and brought many through into the first team. The problem we have today is not KH but society and specifically what is going on in schools. Teachers are not being honest with pupils they are telling pupils they can do XYZ when they know they cant and never will. They are duping young people and lying to them. One of the biggest lies is mis selling the benefits of a university education and the highly paid job and career which awaits them when they leave. KH gave it to his players straight with his total honesty. It is far better to do that then to lead them on, when at a later date the disappointment is even greater. Some lads and parents find that difficult to take - tough. Listen and learn to someone who knows what he is talking about. KH was not prepared to compromise as he is a man of principle. Lets see who takes over and the job they do. I can tell you they will not do a better job than KH. It would not surprise me if they had a passport with Bury on the front of it.

 

[justanotherfan]

Could it not be as simple as the fact that Mr Hodges did not fit into Mr Lowes vision of PAFC?

 

[Quintrell Green]

I keep hearing on this message board that times have moved on and things need to be done differently these days. KH is accused of being 'old fashioned' in his methods and it is that which has brought about his demise. It was not long ago he was in charge of an Argyle academy team which beat if not the best, then one of the best academy sides in this world, namely Manchester City in the FA Youth Cup. Followed by going away to Burnley, winning and missing out on penalties to another top academy team Fulham. I could list all the players he has developed over the years in his role and brought many through into the first team. The problem we have today is not KH but society and specifically what is going on in schools. Teachers are not being honest with pupils they are telling pupils they can do XYZ when they know they cant and never will. They are duping young people and lying to them. One of the biggest lies is mis selling the benefits of a university education and the highly paid job and career which awaits them when they leave. KH gave it to his players straight with his total honesty. It is far better to do that then to lead them on, when at a later date the disappointment is even greater. Some lads and parents find that difficult to take - tough. Listen and learn to someone who knows what he is talking about. KH was not prepared to compromise as he is a man of principle. Lets see who takes over and the job they do. I can tell you they will not do a better job than KH. It would not surprise me if they had a passport with Bury on the front of it.

A good post this.. I feel it adds to some of my thoughts earlier.

 

[MarkMatthews]

I think Hodges does take hell of a lot of unjustified stick, I can’t comment on his methods even if they were explained to me I wouldn’t know what the PC modern ways are to contrast his supposedly outdated ones with plus it’s been said I’m a bit of an historic throw back myself so probably wouldn’t see him as a dinosaur anyway.

I think he had an unenviable position as the constant professional that he has always came across as to me, as part of managerial chain he had to toe the current party line, when dealing with his players/parents and I’m sure that pained him at times, I’m also sure he would have forcefully fought their corner in private with first team management/board members.

Lastly I think he did a fine job, he was responsible for them up to the age of 18, after that they aren’t his remit. So the question about the yardstick of his success shouldn’t be how many players he and his team developed that broke into the first team but how many were taken onto professional contracts or further development contracts. The failure of those not then breaking into the first team is on the shoulders of the coaches and management at those levels.

I’m sad to lose him as I said he was the consummate professional in my dealings with him, like me he’s not the biggest and he didn’t discriminate against smaller players like many so called dinosaurs would. Wish him all the best for the future as I do for the next man in the role, I sincerely hope you don’t come against first team management, the likes of which Kevin Hodges did in his time.

 

[Mike E]

Mervyn, you asked what is the difference between a Category 1 and 3 academy.

In 2011/12 the Premier league, backed by the English Football League and FA, set up the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) to improve the standard and increase the number of home grown players, able to compete and play in the top division(s) of English football, and so divided English footballs youth academy systems into three categories according to the facilities and training standards that they required.

As far as I am aware :-
To prove their stability Category 1 clubs have to own their own training, fitness, medical and educational facilities that provide indoor and outdoor pitches (usually a dome) gymnasium, classrooms, offices and medical and psychological support. They in return recieve a certain amount of funding and play each other in what is considered the elite North and South divisions. If you google u18 Premier league you will be able to see which clubs are involved.

Category 2 clubs don't necessarily own all their own facilities and often share or rent their education facilities with local schools and colleges. They do however recieve limited funding in return for maintaining the high levels of coaching and education etc.

Category 3 clubs don't tend to own there own facilities and rent them from other local schools and colleges, (in Argyles case Ivybridge technical college and Marjon), they also don't tend to recieve any funding.

The system is heavily weighted in favour of the Category 1 clubs to attract and concentrate the talent towards the premier u18 and u23 leagues to play and compete at the highest level possible. For example a notable difference from Brentford (Category 2) to Brighton (Category 1) is the number of international scouts at most of the Category 1 matches compared to a lack of them at Category 2, thus rendering Category 1 players more likely to experience international football at a young age.

Argyle (and Pompey) both missed the boat by going into financial meltdown and disbanding their youth set ups at the critical time that this was being set up.

 

[MarkMatthews]

Mervyn, you asked what is the difference between a Category 1 and 3 academy.

In 2011/12 the Premier league, backed by the English Football League and FA, set up the Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) to improve the standard and increase the number of home grown players, able to compete and play in the top division(s) of English football, and so divided English footballs youth academy systems into three categories according to the facilities and training standards that they required.

As far as I am aware :-
To prove their stability Category 1 clubs have to own their own training, fitness, medical and educational facilities that provide indoor and outdoor pitches (usually a dome) gymnasium, classrooms, offices and medical and psychological support. They in return recieve a certain amount of funding and play each other in what is considered the elite North and South divisions. If you google u18 Premier league you will be able to see which clubs are involved.

Category 2 clubs don't necessarily own all their own facilities and often share or rent their education facilities with local schools and colleges. They do however recieve limited funding in return for maintaining the high levels of coaching and education etc.

Category 3 clubs don't tend to own there own facilities and rent them from other local schools and colleges, (in Argyles case Ivybridge technical college and Marjon), they also don't tend to recieve any funding.

The system is heavily weighted in favour of the Category 1 clubs to attract and concentrate the talent towards the premier u18 and u23 leagues to play and compete at the highest level possible. For example a notable difference from Brentford (Category 2) to Brighton (Category 1) is the number of international scouts at most of the Category 1 matches compared to a lack of them at Category 2, thus rendering Category 1 players more likely to experience international football at a young age.

Argyle (and Pompey) both missed the boat by going into financial meltdown and disbanding their youth set ups at the critical time that this was being set up.

This was fundamentally flawed from the start despite the authorities having best intentions at heart.

I agree with the former Wolves Chairman Sir Jack Hayward, any club that cant field 11 players from a 20 mile radius means we are in trouble. Bring that in as a rule and football would get the shake up it desperately needs.

I wouldn’t go as far as Sir Jack, make it a rule each club needs at least six (over half) of players born in a 20 mile radius law. Being a member of the Common Market outlaws our right to bring this in, hopefully once we finally leave we can bring in this much over due law. That is the only way we can improve our owns chances.

 

[Mike E]

I'm afraid that might have the opposite effect Mark and benefit the big cities that have bigger populations with more players to chose from.

Twenty mile radius would also restrict Argyle recruiting from West Cornwall and North Devon. It would cripple a club like Carlisle.

I personally believe the only way for Argyle to survive and compete with the bigger Premiership financial budgets and recruitmemt advantages, is to pool our resources with other West Country clubs and create an elite acadamy that meets all the requirements of Category 1 status, based somewhere like Taunton, (or even further East ) fed by Advanced Development Centres strategically placed in North Devon, Cormwall and Plymouth for mid week training. ADCs help in meeting the fifty mile radius requirements.

We have to bite the bullet and realise that Argyle do not currently have the resources to fund and build a Category 1 acadamy on our own. Dare I say it but, Exeter City even though they are still only Category 3 status, have a very successful ADC system that feeds their youth system and ultimately contributes to the survival of the club.

The nearest Category 1 acadamies are currently Southampton, Reading amd Swansea so a facility in Somerset would serve a purpose.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

Forcing Argyle to pick players from a 20-mile radius would put us at a major disadvantage, seeing as half of our radius is in the English channel and much of the other half is moorland.

 

[The Doctor]

Forcing Argyle to pick players from a 20-mile radius would put us at a major disadvantage, seeing as half of our radius is in the English channel and much of the other half is moorland.

To be fair, we’ve had some decent players from Dartmoor:

Pony James
Marcel Sheep
Jose Baxtor

 

[Guiri Green]

Forcing Argyle to pick players from a 20-mile radius would put us at a major disadvantage, seeing as half of our radius is in the English channel and much of the other half is moorland.

To be fair, we’ve had some decent players from Dartmoor:

Pony James
Marcel Sheep
Jose Baxtor

If we could cast our nets further afield, we could perhaps trawl the lower leagues further out and pick up Finnish Players back to our place for example.

I'd be gutted to be restricted to certain Zones if I'd landed the Argyle job. It's great saying we have a huge catchment area but if the Nett result is you're limited to where you can look, the Scales aren't tipped in your favour.

 

[David Fisher]

I think Hodges does take hell of a lot of unjustified stick, I can’t comment on his methods even if they were explained to me I wouldn’t know what the PC modern ways are to contrast his supposedly outdated ones with plus it’s been said I’m a bit of an historic throw back myself so probably wouldn’t see him as a dinosaur anyway.

I think he had an unenviable position as the constant professional that he has always came across as to me, as part of managerial chain he had to toe the current party line, when dealing with his players/parents and I’m sure that pained him at times, I’m also sure he would have forcefully fought their corner in private with first team management/board members.

Lastly I think he did a fine job, he was responsible for them up to the age of 18, after that they aren’t his remit. So the question about the yardstick of his success shouldn’t be how many players he and his team developed that broke into the first team but how many were taken onto professional contracts or further development contracts. The failure of those not then breaking into the first team is on the shoulders of the coaches and management at those levels.

I’m sad to lose him as I said he was the consummate professional in my dealings with him, like me he’s not the biggest and he didn’t discriminate against smaller players like many so called dinosaurs would. Wish him all the best for the future as I do for the next man in the role, I sincerely hope you don’t come against first team management, the likes of which Kevin Hodges did in his time.

Sums up my thoughts pretty much - sorry to see him go.

 

[GreenThing]

It doesn’t help that Chelsea and Southampton have academies in Devon.

 

[WoodsyGreen]

It doesn’t help that Chelsea and Southampton have academies in Devon.

They aren't academies, they're development centres. Kids can't be signed by dev centres so are still available for Argyle to take at any time.

Only a properly starstruck parent would turn down an actual professional academy just to play in a Chelsea kit for a glorified school team.